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Simon's avatar

'Michael Pettis also argues that cheap Chinese stuff actually makes Americans poorer, by reducing their domestic production so much that Americans actually end up consuming less. I’m highly skeptical of this argument, since a basic principle of economics is that people don’t voluntarily do things that make them poorer.'

I am not sure how this principle holds when you take large and heterogeneous groups such as 'Americans' or the 'Chinese' (and even for smaller groups it fails if you'd ask me). There are plenty of Americans who would do something that would make others poorer, as long as it makes them richer, even if total wealth decreases. Pushing addictive painkillers (or illegal drugs) on the market was a voluntary choice of some, even if drug (or painkiller) addictions reduce productivity of the addicted and thus total productivity and wealth creation. Moving production to the other side of the world has certainly made CEO's and shareholders wealthier, but not factory workers, nor plenty of local communities (and who says the shareholders and CEO's are domesticated in the US, meaning that even more corporate profits move elsewhere). The increasing call for onshoring and the potential economic benefits thereof shows that these past actions might have been a voluntary mistake, from a national point of view.

Buying a cheaper Chinese car does seem like an individually rational choice, but when a sufficient number of people makes this choice this could push some other manufacturer over the brink, meaning that an even larger number of cars won't be made in the US. And considering the size of automotive plants and companies these days, the bankruptcy of a company like Ford, however unlikely it seems, would certainly make Americans poorer.

Even on an individual level: How many people have voluntarily bought NFT's?

This doesn't say anything about whether or not we need tariffs though, it's just that your 'basic principle of economics' can work if, and only if, people would be fully 'rational' (which we're not) and have full information of the future effects of their actions (which we don't), and you see a nation as a homogeneous entity (which it is not). So maybe that basic principle needs to be revised if you're trying to make sense of the real world?

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Suhas Bhat's avatar

This is one of my favourite topics but one I don't fully understand. Here is my understanding and I would love it if you or anyone else could answer some questions that I have:

The Chinese government (especially the CCP) has amassed a great war chest in terms of funds/assets through taxation of individuals and companies which, in turn, received payments from around the world in the first two decades of the 21st century. In essence, 1 out of every 100 dollars or their equivalent created around the world by various central banks probably went into the CCP's pockets. China became the factory of the world as companies increasingly used its massive labour force and pro-capital policies working with thousands of contract manufacturers, especially as the products of Japanese and Korean companies became more expensive and American and European companies outsourced jobs and factories to China to produce goods at scale for an increasingly globalised world.

Given the state-owned banking system and a snakehold over financial executives, the CCP used some of this tax revenue as well as international dollar bonds issued by local governments through local government financing vehicles (LGFVs) to subsidise the manufacturing sector when it could have spent it instead on improving healthcare. (The high taxation levels also probably stopped Chinese workers from building wealth through their incomes so they went on a house buying binge.) Chinese companies, on the other hand, began to become global exporters in their own right developing their own 'brands' targeting the less affluent markets initially and then entering European and American markets. The emergence of the internet and improved shipping networks allowed them to export directly to the end consumer (e.g. Shein) or else export directly to wholesalers/retailers.

The People's Bank of China also controls the exchange rate preventing it from appreciating as renmimbi increasingly became an important currency in international trade.

So my questions are:

1) Why don't other large developing countries (India, Brazil, Indonesia) copy this?

2) If you think of the CCP or the Chinese government as basically a big bank that makes sub-optimal lending decisions then won't the money run out sometime? When?

3) China needs to increase domestic demand or consumption but what does that mean in practice? What are they unable to do that people take for granted in developed countries? Is this just a roundabout way of saying the CCP or the Chinese government needs to tax less and banks need to reduce interest rates for personal loans or credit card loans or give out more loans than they currently do etc.

4) Much of China's trade with the world actually involves intermediate goods, not final goods. Given companies rarely like to change suppliers and it's hard to find ones that can produce at scale, speed and at cost then can there ever truly be any alternatives?

5) Wouldn't the world suffer if tariffs on Chinese intermediate goods leads to higher prices for consumers worldwide? Doesn't everyone deserve an Alexa or an iPhone or their knock-offs?

6) If the PBOC controls the exchange rate like this and it has largely worked out for them then why do we advocate free float of exchange rates for developing countries? Provided they're good at managing their reserves, shouldn't they pick an optimal exchange rate and stick to it? How is it that some countries like Japan and China can control exchange rates but others like Sri Lanka or Argentina or Indonesia or India can't?

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