Fabs don’t require software engineers. They require materials and mechanical/electrical engineers, but mostly skilled technicians. Totally different education and skill set.
Also... 300-500K isn’t a mid-level programmers salary (you have been in San Francisco to long).
Yes, fabs don't require software engineers, but people considering whether to go into semiconductor manufacturing or software will still be lured by the very high salaries of the software industry! 😊
I haven’t disagreed with you much recently. But, maybe only on the margins. And I think the local effect would be even less.
Also, I think you overestimate the requirements for running a Fab. Once manufactured and running, the engineers will be all over site and supervision and quality control. The whole thing will be operated by community college graduates.
The really detailed engineering will be done centrally and probably remotely. And probably a lot by contract specialty firms.
Look at the two places that Micron decided to build Fabs at. Middling tech hubs like Boise and upstate New York. Access to trainable technicians (smart blue collar types). Neither area is known for producing a boat load of software engineers.
But... this is good.
Instead of convincing software engineers to switch to chip manufacturing, a better bet is training the mass of Americans or Canadians that would of worked service jobs to go to 2-years or school and make 100K (with overtime) working 12-hour shifts making chips.
And yes... the vast majority of Fab jobs end up being 10-12 hour shifts. Micron works on a weird 4 on 3 off 3 on something schedule. 24-hours a day.
At the heart of it.... Fabs are really just high tech factories where people help machines make things.
There’s a strange phenomenon that I’ve noticed where engineers who are important tend to take credit for the technical work that technicians actually do. It’s like in movies when you see the officers being the bad asses. In real life, officers are managers, oversee things, organize… But the bad asses are the enlisted people.
Hey, Sabe is a bunch of technical gizmos that requires welding and soldering and maintenance and all sorts of other miscellaneous non-glorified jobs. The people that turn the screwdrivers, and push the buttons, and monitor the dials are technicians.
No one is going to get a PhD to sit there for 24 hours a day seven days a week to watch a machine print out microcircuit’s
Intel used to have a lot more higher education requirements for it's engineering positions, but they've changed quite a bit in the last few years. I'm a Shift 1 (regular 8-5 shift with oncall hours) process engineer at Intel with a bachelor's degree, and most of the younger employees in my module are in a similar boat (some have Masters, but most just have a BS in mech/chem/materials science/engineering). I'm sure you still need a PhD to get into a lot of the actual chip design/lab experimentation part of the industry, but the bulk of the engineering is just keeping the fab running.
That is arguably the case for the vast majority of fabs (though Intel fabs are full of people with an MS in engineering) but it’s simply not true at all for TSMC fabs using ASML EUV technology.
Weird. ASML actually has the requirements for a ASML EUV Technician on their website
To help us tackle the technical challenges we face, you have..
A MBO 3/4 (vocational / associate degree) with at least 4 years hands on assembly and qualification experience e.g. mechanical engineering, mechatronics, aerospace, electronics or automotive engineering
Seems like a skilled technician trade to me.
This is just one job. Multiple positions are like this. Basically skilled technician jobs.
Here is one in Atlanta. HS Diploma required plus experience
This would be a great sub-title for your next article ablout how Fabs and other high tech manufacturing offers a boom to what we use to call blue collar.
In fact, I think we need a new term.... gray collar. They are people like me who do skilled technical labor, and make 6-figures. It’s blue collar in that there is a physicality to it. No desk work. But the training or certification or education levels and the pay and demand put it above blue collar. Even some blue collar jobs should be re-designated.
Regardless. Thanks for reading my insomnia rantings. I have a 7am flight back to. Pose from South Carolina and I am fucked.
This is an interesting discussion. I’m no expert in the technical challenges but I do believe we overestimate college education and undervalue technical training.
All automated manufacturing these days requires software engineers. Semiconductor wafer fabs especially need software engineers -- quite a few of them. Fabs ALSO require capital investment, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, loads of process engineers, chemical engineers and yes, highly skilled technicians. Sure some of the jobs are "blue collar" but the technicians in a fab are not 1970's technicians on a car assembly line.
Want to reemphasize this strongly -- automated manufacturing especially fabs requires lots of software and engineers. Why? to automate the manufacturing. The software that operates the machines is tailored (and frequently re-tailored) to the company / building / semiconductor process and occasionally to the specific chip design.
Over the past 7 years, the 300k-500k per year is a pretty reasonable estimate for total comp (including equity compensation, which can be a large fraction) for a top 25% competency software engineer at one of the top 25% of companies in the bay area. Equity can vary from maybe 25% of total comp to 75%. (Yes, With all distributions like this exponentially more close to 300 than to 500, but still reasonably accurate.) Think Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Tesla etc. They hire and compete for talent enough to set a market and startups and other companies have to compete in some way.
To comment on the idea
1. It's a great idea in terms of natural resources: water, electricity (hydropower) and stable ground
2. It's a great idea in terms of Canada's demonstrated better ability to support immigration of educated human capital.
3. It's hard (read slow and risky) to bring up the whole industry and supply chain quickly even if building buildings is quicker. That industrial supply chain already exists in the SF bay area, arizona, texas, upstate NY, idaho (yes micron in Boise). I think this aspect is being overlooked. It is one reason why many of the CHIPS new build sites are in locations with semiconductor history. 80% all of those sites were where a company said "yes, I'll expand in a place I *ALREADY* have a footprint."
And a hard thing, but a good thing:
4. I would prefer to see America solve its problems by removing some red tape -- a deregulatory & incentives based CHIPS act rather than the one we got but that's um, unlikely, due to legislative incentives.
It's funny, because I had a similiar pitch back when everything was going down with Hong Kong to try and convince as many people and financial institutions to flee to Vancouver/Calgary.
Honestly the Federal government in Canada has never seemed willing to really actively take advantage of high immigration rates, to deliberately either steal firms or strip authoritarian countries of talent. Instead they end up passively being the consumer of last resort for PhD students and engineering grads from US universities who can't get green cards. Which is good, but feels like a missed opportunity.
There's disagreement here in Canada as to whether the prior immigration policy has been 'selective enough' or not. But what's happening *now* is distinct from the past, whatever it was.
Today's Globe and Mail:
U.S. wants Canada to take part in a global economic decoupling from China
[...]
[The U.S. President just invited Canada to take part in a global economic decoupling, in a multination effort to repatriate critical supply chains away from authoritarian countries such as China. And Canada said yes.
Details are to come in Tuesday’s federal budget. What we know already is that Canada will follow the U.S. in establishing a major package of industrial subsidies. Those incentives are supposed to create the industrial base for a low-carbon future and bring jobs to North America. But it’s also supposed to separate supply chains from authoritarian countries.]
The story and others now running is non-subscription. Announcements pending relate exactly to this blog. I suggest Noah forwards this blog piece to the Globe for a guest publication. I have linked this in a few reader comments at the Globe.
My background is working in, and managing large wafer fabs in the US. The issue of staffing a fab is not well understood outside of the industry. There are three different workforces to assemble: semiconductor manufacturing engineers, maintenance technicians and operators. I started as a manufacturing engineer. I have a PhD in physics.
I had to acquire an eclectic group of EEs, MEs, materials engineers, chemical engineers, chemists and physicists as manufacturing engineers. Advanced degrees preferred. I had to have a sufficiently wide bandwidth of technical knowledge/skills to apply to an insanely complex assemblage of machines, instruments and processes. Infuriatingly, semiconductor processes tend to be meta stable. That is, they only work repeatably and consistently when the process variables are maintained precisely. The trick is identifying and understanding the process variables and how to control them. Statistical process control grew up in a fab. Our motto: Mother Nature hates semiconductor processing. One final comment. No fresh college grad arrives ready to work. Their real education begins when they hit the fab floor.
The complexity of the fab tools is staggering: high voltage plus high vacuum (ion implanters); extreme sensitivity to vibrations and particulate contamination (lithography); high temperature and precise temperature control (diffusion furnaces); exotic chemistry management (chemical vapor deposition and metal stutterers). The need for highly skilled and knowledgeable technicians is is very difficult to satisfy and maintain. Especially for 24/7 operations. The fab itself requires support for air management and utilities. The air at the fab floor must reliably not exceed having one particle larger than one micron in size per cubic meter!
Finally, the operators. They are the fuel of the fab. All of the engineers and technicians are in the fab to support their work. They need to be smart, detail oriented and diligent. Often they are the key to detecting minor deviations that can lead to big problems if not attended. Not surprisingly, the manufacturing engineers cultivate alliances with the operators. These informal teams are essential to smooth operations. Operators don’t have to have technical backgrounds, but when persons have two year or bachelor degrees, they are especially prized.
Fabs can’t work well in the boondocks. They require vast amounts of power, water and specialty gases. The equipment needs regular attention by the suppliers, so proximity to a large airport is very important.
It occurred to me that given the mix of needs, the best place to site a fab in Canada might be the Ottawa Valley, outside Ottawa.
Ottawa has a population of 1.5M and always attracts a surprisingly large surplus of physicists, chemists and engineers with PhDs more than anywhere else on the continent. It has a decent, efficient airport, and cheaper land than Canada's larger cities. Housing prices are high compared to similar US cities, but not horrible. Lots of electrical and water supply surpluses, and a few industries that use specialty gases.
Most importantly, due to treaty structures, the lower part of the Valley actually doesn't have nearly the First Nations de facto veto issues present in much of the country.
I disagree. Canada's most opportune sighting *by far* is in Waterloo. The city is the birthplace of the Blackberry, the universities and colleges are optimized on high-tech, and it's an hour's drive from Toronto. The region is not only high-tech, it's also historically Canada's manufacturing cradle too, especially if you include Brantford.
I've posted detailed reference elsewhere in this string.
The numbers though are even better for Alberta, specifically the Calgary region. Cheaper land and lower taxes. Less red tape. Less NIMBY. An abundance of engineers. It's much closer to Silicon Valley and Seattle (a day trip). The most secure energy supply in the world A more pro business environment. Much weaker private sector unions.
Calgary region's plusses for a fab are the abundance of PhD's in the chemical area, and low land prices. Water and energy are the achilles heel.
Alberta's is not the most secure electrical supply, by a fair margin. It's still largely based on fossil fuels, and Alberta isn't moving fast enough to change that. Anyone who needs a lot of electricity has to be concerned about Alberta's stance on fossil fuels given the disruption that is coming on fast. Ironically, the likely solution will need to include nukes of some form, which also need the water that is relatively scarce in Alberta.
Then again, Arizona is going to get fabs, which makes little sense given the water situation.
Depends on how much water and the quality of that water. There is plenty of brine water underground in Alberta that isn't useful for human, or ag consumption for instance but could be useful for nuclear or industry.
For energy, Alberta sits on a large gas field, one of the largest uranium deposits in the world are next door in Saskatchewan, and it is most optimal place for solar and wind power in Canada. Alberta will be fine on the water and energy front.
based on the comments here, the disagreements seem more about where northwards will be best, versus 'we must be stupid since all fabs want to build in the desert'.
so not only will the fabs be fighting each other for water, but also voting residents that may (eventually) want priority.
I've heard from YIMBYs up there that things aren't _great_. Vancouver and Toronto are both pretty hard to build in, and same for the nearby suburbs. But I bet you could do something on open land near Winnipeg pretty easily.
The downside of course would be: Then you would be in Winnipeg. (It's beautiful, but there's a reason people also jokingly call it "Winterpeg".)
Calgary and Edmonton probably make more sense given they are larger, already have the presence of large multinational firms and don't hit -40C close to as frequently.
Also Office towers in Calgary are still basically free, so if they want one of those I suspect they could get it for the backtaxes.
Calgary and Edmonton metro areas are both over 1.5 million people each, depending on which numbers you look at, and Alberta is over 4.5M total.
So not the largest centres in Canada, but given the point of this exercise in importing the people to run it, I think the drastically lower housing costs, and marginally better schools and tax rates would make it more attractive.
Alberta's population is moot; People won't be commuting to a factory in Calgary from Edmonton or Lethbridge.
There's no point in having lower taxes if you can't get the workers; businesses don't care about the quality of local high schools. (Or if you mean universities, the GTA obviously has more skilled graduates available).
And *Toronto* housing prices aren't the same as *Greater Toronto* housing prices.
Calgary has 1.6 million people in the metro. Not much less than the Portland area. It's cheaper, lower taxes and prettier than the Ontario centres as well, and with better K-12 schools. On paper Alberta wins.
Oh no, a few managers from TWSC who have neither French not English as a first language will have to learn French to talk with some Montreal-area workers...
Noah’s whole point is that Canada, almost uniquely, will likely be happy to just import the labor pool they need. So they can kinda stick it wherever they want if that’s true.
Yeah, this. Brian Potter had a great post recently looking at skyscraper construction speed in many countries and cities across the world, and Canada was literally the slowest:
I'm not sure Canada is the paradise of "no veto and fast construction" Noah is making it out to be. Now Japan?? That's your country if you want to build big complex things quickly and well.
There would be no problem in the municipalities around Toronto. Zoning is already in place; large land parcel is are available. Just need to show your building meets code requirements and away you go.
[Kitchener-Waterloo is one of the fastest growing innovation hubs in the world, consisting of more than 1,500 tech-related businesses. The region's tech sector is predicted to reach 24,000 workers by 2025.]
Oct 7, 2022
That's a pittance mostly for an attempt at political relevance, $Bs have been invested in Waterloo over the years for tech development. Announcements of of further investment are pending.
Eastern Alberta does not have plenty of water. You probably meant "Ontario and Manitoba."
Alberta is not in Central Canada. Manitoba really isn't either, by most definitions of the term.
Yes, in terms of immigration, Canada is more reminiscent of the bustling US before the 1930s.. Those immigrants almost exclusively go to Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. None of them are very seismically stable, although Toronto is the best on that front. Some of Greater Toronto's satellite cities however are in Canada's tornado alley.
The Canadian shield is quite seismically stable. It's not close to Vancouver or Toronto.
Two important factors not considered in the above:
- Move to Montreal, and any immigrants would need to speak French in the workplace, because it has more than 25 employees.
- If you want to build a project of this size, it will attract the interest of the First Nations industry. If you think it takes a long time to build in the USA, in Canada First Nations have to be consulted, especially anywhere on or near the Canadian shield, and they have a de facto veto. Getting anything done would be 10-15 years in court. For large-scale projects to take place in Canada, governments must negotiate with First Nations, and both are incentivized to "negotiate", but never settle. So large-scale private projects are almost impossible.
To give you an idea of how bad it is, two examples are:
- in 2015, neither Canada nor the US had LNG terminals. With North America's shale revolution generating copious excess production, the scramble was on. Since then, the US has built 6 terminals, much of which will now go to Germany. Canada might get one terminal finished by 2025; the incomplete pipeline is subject to blockades and industrial sabotage.
- Canada is home to most of the metals needed for the EV revolution at global scale, and in deposits so profitable, they could vault Canada's GDP by up to 10% for decades. Developers have been trying to get mines operating since 1998, but have faced blockades, kidnappings, murders, FN de facto vetoes and a plethora of court cases for 25 years. More than one operator has lost >$500M in development costs before giving up on governments and FNs ever getting serious.
The US is nowhere near as development friendly as Taiwan or South Korea. Notice how well both have developed compared to North America since 1960. But for decades, Canada has been far, far less development friendly than the US.
Where there's a will, there's a way. With Canada and the US developing such barnacles on development, big projects increasingly need solid, extended political support. This is much more like the rest of the world than it used to be.
Canada is disappointingly a build-nothing country as well. It may be politically a little different mix, but the overall vibe is a center-left government that pays lip service to key issues, but equally incapable of actually organizing people to make progress. Vetocracy all the way. It's a great idea were the existing residents interested in organizing and building a new industry. From what I see here on the ground, the immigration policy is not connected to any sort of industrial policy.
[From what I see here on the ground, the immigration policy is not connected to any sort of industrial policy.]
Really?
FSWP: Immigrate to Canada under the Federal Skilled Worker Program
Last updated: 14 March 2023
[Under Express Entry, Canada aims to welcome over 110,000 immigrants by 2024. Most successful Express Entry candidates immigrate to Canada through the FSWP. Research by the Canadian government shows that FSWP immigrants go on to have successful and fulfilling careers in Canada.]
Canada's primary immigration program is tied to sectoral labour demand, rather than some other industrial policy, but that targeting is arguably a form of industrial policy itself.
Canada doesn't have much of an industrial policy otherwise, beyond (routinely disastrous) military procurement and the political necessity of spreading (dis-productive) pork geographically as 'regional economic development'.
As for Canada's current federal government, it is not a matter of being incapable of organizing people to make progress, it is almost completely uninterested in progress. It is a curious form of virtual government, invested entirely in signaling as an end unto itself, but uninterested in almost anything else, and allergic to any productive achievement or economic performance.
It has nearly perfected this form, and doesn't face a robustly competitive opposition, thus no need to improve.
I don't see why this wouldn't work. But as a Canadian I'm not a fan of the idea of Canada as America-Tech-lite where workers can be paid a lot less (in high COL cities).
The Canadian government is glad to maintain these ludicrous immigration levels since the gov is captured by large business interests who want wages suppressed (and also more consumers for our oligopolies in telecom, groceries, banking, etc). Many Canadians, especially younger ones who are less likely to have secure housing, don't support that level of immigration.
The trope of Canadian tech workers being cheaper to pay is insulting, especially in the context of how high the cost of living is in Vancouver and Toronto. Many Canadian tech workers take remote US jobs, or just move to the US.
>The trope of Canadian tech workers being cheaper to pay is insulting<
It's not a "trope." Professional wages in Canada are indeed lower than in the US (that's the case with most countries compared to the US). Technology workers are no exception.
On the other hand, your healthcare coverage can't be taken away, and you've got sane gun laws and affordable college.
You are assuming the health care is any good, that Canada's gun laws are sane (as opposed to a mish mash virtue signalling mess) and that college is "affordable."
I'm not "assuming" those three things. I'm asserting them. Because they're true.
(Hint: saying a country does *better* than the US in some areas isn't the same as claiming it does those things *perfectly* — there's always room for improvement!)
Not just those cities, the issue is really bad anywhere you'd wanna set up shop in Ontario or bc, not just their capitals. Calgary or Edmonton seem like the only potentially viable options imo
US, Canada plan North American chip corridor, starting with IBM expansion
March 24 (Reuters) - The United States and Canada said on Friday they would work together to create a bilateral semiconductor manufacturing corridor, as International Business Machines (IBM.N) signaled its intent to expand in Canada.
[...]
The Canadian government will spend C$250 million ($181.94 million) on its domestic semiconductor industry to boost research and development and manufacturing, the prime minister's office said in a statement.
For Canada, Waterloo is probably the best locale for this.
[...]
[According to CBRE, a larger share of Waterloo’s employment is high-tech than any of these cities. We didn’t cherry-pick, either. These comparators are among the top-ranked talent markets in the United States, according to . Waterloo has a greater density of tech talent than the Austin, Detroit or Columbus. We didn’t include it on the chart, but Waterloo also has a higher concentration of tech workers than Seattle or Denver, too. When it comes to talent density, Waterloo is the top mid-sized tech hub in North America.
[...]
One thing that really defines the is its sheer size. Yes, it’s highly rated, but it also has 10,000+ engineering students. It has about 4,000 computer science students. Among the comparison communities we listed above, it’s a clear leader, with only University of Michigan – Ann Arbor and Arizona State University – which has a very low global ranking for engineering – above us. No one comes close to UWaterloo’s computer science enrollment. It isn’t just about quantity, either (more about that on our next chart!). These are some of the best tech students you’ll find in North America and just about every graduate finishes with That helps explain why it’s one of Silicon Valley’s top recruitment schools.]
Waterloo is an hour's drive from Toronto, and looking to attract industry exactly as this blog proposes. The area is already deeply into photovoltaic R and D:
Centre for Advanced Photovoltaic and Display Systems (CAPDS) at the University of Waterloo.
[CAPDS promotes cutting edge research, training, and technology development in photovoltaic energy conversion and advanced display systems. We aim to be part of the solutions for these key sectors of the future.
Located at the University of Waterloo (UW), right at the heart of Canada's Technology Triangle area, the CAPDS is a 14000 square-foot state-of-the-art research facility with dedicated infrastructure for materials and devices research in the fields of photovoltaics and displays.]
This was then (2016), the biz for software workers (as opposed to chip) has completely reversed:
There should be consequences for Ontario grads leaving Canada: CEOs
JANE TABER (Globe and Mail)
TORONTO
PUBLISHED JUNE 23, 2016
[...]
[Benjamin Bergen, CCI's executive director, said government policies are needed to retain talented grads in Canada.
"We must look at Ontario's heavily subsidized tuition as not just a carrot but also a stick, in critical subjects such as computer engineering," he said. "We should examine if an Ontario graduate leaves for Silicon Valley, the merits of reclaiming our collective investment in their education and repurposing these funds to make Canadian tech salaries more competitive."
The group has not provided specific examples of how money could be repaid, but it believes there needs to be a public-policy solution to the problem.
Statistics to back up its claims of a brain drain are hard to find, and most of the concern is based on anecdotal evidence. But high-tech CEOs, especially in the Kitchener-Waterloo area of Ontario, say hiring talented people is a problem because University of Waterloo graduates are in high demand in California.
"I'm all for giving free education … but there need to be prerequisites," said Dan Latendre, CEO of Igloo Software, a company he started in 2008 in Waterloo. He has 125 employees and 30 job openings for technology positions, quality assurance and even executives because he can't find talented people to fill them.
In fact, he has had to outsource some of his work to an eight-member team in Poland. Next year, he said he expects to spend between $1.5-million to $2-million in outsource development.]
Wages for engineers of all stripes are much better in Alberta than in Ontario. You can't throw a rock in Calgary or Fort McMurray without hitting an Ontario trained engineer.
The value proposition for an Ontario resident engineer who wants/needs to stay in Canada for Alberta is too great to ignore. Much healthier wages, better opportunity for career growth for young engineers, lower taxes, much lower housing costs, better schools, etc. It's hard to ignore. Ontario has priced itself out for those who are mobile.
Exactly. So why would an off-shore high-tech industry want to start-up in in a region of higher than average wage demand?
Meantime:
[Where is the Silicon Valley of Canada?
The Toronto-Waterloo Corridor is the largest tech cluster in North America outside of Silicon Valley. It's bigger than Boston, New York or Seattle. It's far larger than other tech hubs like Pittsburgh or Columbus. Canada doesn't do much on an American scale, but the Toronto-Waterloo Corridor is an exception.]
So Waterloo being the "dollar store version of Silicon Valley" is their big sell?
I don't know... Ontario has an abundance of talent, and way easier to bring them in from overseas than the US, but the red tape, taxes cost of doing business in Ontario, are some of the highest on the continent. More so than Arizona or Alberta (or Texas)
Overall i suspect a chip fan would look a lot more like am automotive assembly plant from a workforce structure than a software company. Southwestern ON would be good from a land, water, low but not quite shield low seismic activity.
Alberta is more water constrained but still possible (and cheaper).
I don't think anywhere else has the pop base and colleges / universities to really train out a workforce.
It terms of building something, Ontario would be all over something equivalent to a new auto plant, esp in a different industry if it were a serious possibility. I doubt it has been considered serious so far though.
Excellent analysis of how 🤔 the chip problems could be a win-win for everyone 😀 if they would just common sense instead of greed determining how to have our own stable base of chip manufacturing here in North America 🌎 🇺🇸
Arizona summers are *already* nasty, to be fair. For kicks I once looked into the population of Phoenix versus the deployment of air conditioning and as far as I can tell artificial cooling is basically the only reason the city exists.
Fabs don’t require software engineers. They require materials and mechanical/electrical engineers, but mostly skilled technicians. Totally different education and skill set.
Also... 300-500K isn’t a mid-level programmers salary (you have been in San Francisco to long).
But aside from that, it’s a good idea.
Yes, fabs don't require software engineers, but people considering whether to go into semiconductor manufacturing or software will still be lured by the very high salaries of the software industry! 😊
I haven’t disagreed with you much recently. But, maybe only on the margins. And I think the local effect would be even less.
Also, I think you overestimate the requirements for running a Fab. Once manufactured and running, the engineers will be all over site and supervision and quality control. The whole thing will be operated by community college graduates.
The really detailed engineering will be done centrally and probably remotely. And probably a lot by contract specialty firms.
Look at the two places that Micron decided to build Fabs at. Middling tech hubs like Boise and upstate New York. Access to trainable technicians (smart blue collar types). Neither area is known for producing a boat load of software engineers.
But... this is good.
Instead of convincing software engineers to switch to chip manufacturing, a better bet is training the mass of Americans or Canadians that would of worked service jobs to go to 2-years or school and make 100K (with overtime) working 12-hour shifts making chips.
And yes... the vast majority of Fab jobs end up being 10-12 hour shifts. Micron works on a weird 4 on 3 off 3 on something schedule. 24-hours a day.
At the heart of it.... Fabs are really just high tech factories where people help machines make things.
My friend went to work in an Intel fab. He said he was the only one without a PhD.
Your friend is lying to you, or talking about some specific area of the fab. Most of Intel’s fed capability is in Hillsboro Oregon.
A simple Google of Intel’s website, shows multiple positions for technicians, such as this
https://jobs.intel.com/en/job/hillsboro/manufacturing-technician/41147/46347524016
There’s a strange phenomenon that I’ve noticed where engineers who are important tend to take credit for the technical work that technicians actually do. It’s like in movies when you see the officers being the bad asses. In real life, officers are managers, oversee things, organize… But the bad asses are the enlisted people.
Hey, Sabe is a bunch of technical gizmos that requires welding and soldering and maintenance and all sorts of other miscellaneous non-glorified jobs. The people that turn the screwdrivers, and push the buttons, and monitor the dials are technicians.
No one is going to get a PhD to sit there for 24 hours a day seven days a week to watch a machine print out microcircuit’s
They need people like this guy
https://jobs.intel.com/en/job/hillsboro/facilities-electrical-technician/41147/45681446208
Or this
https://jobs.intel.com/en/job/hillsboro/facilities-td-mechanical-technician-undergraduate-intern/41147/45778047120
And there are a lot more of these dudes than there are of the PhD dude who designs everything.
So next time your friend tries to brag that he’s out there getting dirty, tell him to stop posing.
Nothing happens without technicians.
Intel used to have a lot more higher education requirements for it's engineering positions, but they've changed quite a bit in the last few years. I'm a Shift 1 (regular 8-5 shift with oncall hours) process engineer at Intel with a bachelor's degree, and most of the younger employees in my module are in a similar boat (some have Masters, but most just have a BS in mech/chem/materials science/engineering). I'm sure you still need a PhD to get into a lot of the actual chip design/lab experimentation part of the industry, but the bulk of the engineering is just keeping the fab running.
That is arguably the case for the vast majority of fabs (though Intel fabs are full of people with an MS in engineering) but it’s simply not true at all for TSMC fabs using ASML EUV technology.
Weird. ASML actually has the requirements for a ASML EUV Technician on their website
To help us tackle the technical challenges we face, you have..
A MBO 3/4 (vocational / associate degree) with at least 4 years hands on assembly and qualification experience e.g. mechanical engineering, mechatronics, aerospace, electronics or automotive engineering
Seems like a skilled technician trade to me.
This is just one job. Multiple positions are like this. Basically skilled technician jobs.
Here is one in Atlanta. HS Diploma required plus experience
https://www.google.com/search?q=ASML+EUV+technician&client=safari&hl=en-us&sxsrf=APwXEdcjBY4eUi25a_AgNN__Vi-20Mu7Rw%3A1679867048529&ei=qLwgZI3pH5650PEP8vyEwAk&oq=ASML+EUV+technician&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgAToKCAAQRxDWBBCwAzoKCAAQigUQsAMQQzoVCC4QigUQxwEQ0QMQyAMQsAMQQxgBOgUIABCABDoICAAQgAQQyQM6BggAEBYQHjoICAAQigUQhgM6BwgAEA0QgAQ6BwghEKABEAo6BQghEKsCSgQIQRgAUNEHWMZIYKBLaANwAHgAgAHBCYgB4U2SAQswLjEuNS0zLjUuM5gBAKABAcgBD8ABAdoBBAgBGAg&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=tldetail&htidocid=rMTakEgH9kUAAAAAAAAAAA%3D%3D&htiq=ASML%20EUV%20technician&htivrt=jobs
Another in San Diego.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ASML+EUV+technician&client=safari&hl=en-us&sxsrf=APwXEdcjBY4eUi25a_AgNN__Vi-20Mu7Rw%3A1679867048529&ei=qLwgZI3pH5650PEP8vyEwAk&oq=ASML+EUV+technician&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgAToKCAAQRxDWBBCwAzoKCAAQigUQsAMQQzoVCC4QigUQxwEQ0QMQyAMQsAMQQxgBOgUIABCABDoICAAQgAQQyQM6BggAEBYQHjoICAAQigUQhgM6BwgAEA0QgAQ6BwghEKABEAo6BQghEKsCSgQIQRgAUNEHWMZIYKBLaANwAHgAgAHBCYgB4U2SAQswLjEuNS0zLjUuM5gBAKABAcgBD8ABAdoBBAgBGAg&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=tldetail&htidocid=0zb5ZcOw-GMAAAAAAAAAAA%3D%3D&htiq=ASML%20EUV%20technician&htivrt=jobs
Another in Austin
https://www.google.com/search?q=ASML+EUV+technician&client=safari&hl=en-us&sxsrf=APwXEdcjBY4eUi25a_AgNN__Vi-20Mu7Rw%3A1679867048529&ei=qLwgZI3pH5650PEP8vyEwAk&oq=ASML+EUV+technician&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgAToKCAAQRxDWBBCwAzoKCAAQigUQsAMQQzoVCC4QigUQxwEQ0QMQyAMQsAMQQxgBOgUIABCABDoICAAQgAQQyQM6BggAEBYQHjoICAAQigUQhgM6BwgAEA0QgAQ6BwghEKABEAo6BQghEKsCSgQIQRgAUNEHWMZIYKBLaANwAHgAgAHBCYgB4U2SAQswLjEuNS0zLjUuM5gBAKABAcgBD8ABAdoBBAgBGAg&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=tldetail&htidocid=kc3Tdt0fA2MAAAAAAAAAAA%3D%3D&htiq=ASML%20EUV%20technician&htivrt=jobs
Have a great day!
Addendum: Fabs a a blue-collar boom. Not a white collar one.
This would be a great sub-title for your next article ablout how Fabs and other high tech manufacturing offers a boom to what we use to call blue collar.
In fact, I think we need a new term.... gray collar. They are people like me who do skilled technical labor, and make 6-figures. It’s blue collar in that there is a physicality to it. No desk work. But the training or certification or education levels and the pay and demand put it above blue collar. Even some blue collar jobs should be re-designated.
Regardless. Thanks for reading my insomnia rantings. I have a 7am flight back to. Pose from South Carolina and I am fucked.
This is an interesting discussion. I’m no expert in the technical challenges but I do believe we overestimate college education and undervalue technical training.
All automated manufacturing these days requires software engineers. Semiconductor wafer fabs especially need software engineers -- quite a few of them. Fabs ALSO require capital investment, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, loads of process engineers, chemical engineers and yes, highly skilled technicians. Sure some of the jobs are "blue collar" but the technicians in a fab are not 1970's technicians on a car assembly line.
Want to reemphasize this strongly -- automated manufacturing especially fabs requires lots of software and engineers. Why? to automate the manufacturing. The software that operates the machines is tailored (and frequently re-tailored) to the company / building / semiconductor process and occasionally to the specific chip design.
Over the past 7 years, the 300k-500k per year is a pretty reasonable estimate for total comp (including equity compensation, which can be a large fraction) for a top 25% competency software engineer at one of the top 25% of companies in the bay area. Equity can vary from maybe 25% of total comp to 75%. (Yes, With all distributions like this exponentially more close to 300 than to 500, but still reasonably accurate.) Think Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Tesla etc. They hire and compete for talent enough to set a market and startups and other companies have to compete in some way.
To comment on the idea
1. It's a great idea in terms of natural resources: water, electricity (hydropower) and stable ground
2. It's a great idea in terms of Canada's demonstrated better ability to support immigration of educated human capital.
3. It's hard (read slow and risky) to bring up the whole industry and supply chain quickly even if building buildings is quicker. That industrial supply chain already exists in the SF bay area, arizona, texas, upstate NY, idaho (yes micron in Boise). I think this aspect is being overlooked. It is one reason why many of the CHIPS new build sites are in locations with semiconductor history. 80% all of those sites were where a company said "yes, I'll expand in a place I *ALREADY* have a footprint."
And a hard thing, but a good thing:
4. I would prefer to see America solve its problems by removing some red tape -- a deregulatory & incentives based CHIPS act rather than the one we got but that's um, unlikely, due to legislative incentives.
Agreed, the supply chain and infrastructure take years to build. You can't just open up a fab anywhere you want.
Read all my replies first. You just repeating stuff already said.
It's funny, because I had a similiar pitch back when everything was going down with Hong Kong to try and convince as many people and financial institutions to flee to Vancouver/Calgary.
Honestly the Federal government in Canada has never seemed willing to really actively take advantage of high immigration rates, to deliberately either steal firms or strip authoritarian countries of talent. Instead they end up passively being the consumer of last resort for PhD students and engineering grads from US universities who can't get green cards. Which is good, but feels like a missed opportunity.
There's disagreement here in Canada as to whether the prior immigration policy has been 'selective enough' or not. But what's happening *now* is distinct from the past, whatever it was.
Today's Globe and Mail:
U.S. wants Canada to take part in a global economic decoupling from China
[...]
[The U.S. President just invited Canada to take part in a global economic decoupling, in a multination effort to repatriate critical supply chains away from authoritarian countries such as China. And Canada said yes.
Details are to come in Tuesday’s federal budget. What we know already is that Canada will follow the U.S. in establishing a major package of industrial subsidies. Those incentives are supposed to create the industrial base for a low-carbon future and bring jobs to North America. But it’s also supposed to separate supply chains from authoritarian countries.]
[...]
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-us-wants-canada-to-take-part-in-a-global-economic-decoupling-from/
The story and others now running is non-subscription. Announcements pending relate exactly to this blog. I suggest Noah forwards this blog piece to the Globe for a guest publication. I have linked this in a few reader comments at the Globe.
My background is working in, and managing large wafer fabs in the US. The issue of staffing a fab is not well understood outside of the industry. There are three different workforces to assemble: semiconductor manufacturing engineers, maintenance technicians and operators. I started as a manufacturing engineer. I have a PhD in physics.
I had to acquire an eclectic group of EEs, MEs, materials engineers, chemical engineers, chemists and physicists as manufacturing engineers. Advanced degrees preferred. I had to have a sufficiently wide bandwidth of technical knowledge/skills to apply to an insanely complex assemblage of machines, instruments and processes. Infuriatingly, semiconductor processes tend to be meta stable. That is, they only work repeatably and consistently when the process variables are maintained precisely. The trick is identifying and understanding the process variables and how to control them. Statistical process control grew up in a fab. Our motto: Mother Nature hates semiconductor processing. One final comment. No fresh college grad arrives ready to work. Their real education begins when they hit the fab floor.
The complexity of the fab tools is staggering: high voltage plus high vacuum (ion implanters); extreme sensitivity to vibrations and particulate contamination (lithography); high temperature and precise temperature control (diffusion furnaces); exotic chemistry management (chemical vapor deposition and metal stutterers). The need for highly skilled and knowledgeable technicians is is very difficult to satisfy and maintain. Especially for 24/7 operations. The fab itself requires support for air management and utilities. The air at the fab floor must reliably not exceed having one particle larger than one micron in size per cubic meter!
Finally, the operators. They are the fuel of the fab. All of the engineers and technicians are in the fab to support their work. They need to be smart, detail oriented and diligent. Often they are the key to detecting minor deviations that can lead to big problems if not attended. Not surprisingly, the manufacturing engineers cultivate alliances with the operators. These informal teams are essential to smooth operations. Operators don’t have to have technical backgrounds, but when persons have two year or bachelor degrees, they are especially prized.
Fabs can’t work well in the boondocks. They require vast amounts of power, water and specialty gases. The equipment needs regular attention by the suppliers, so proximity to a large airport is very important.
Sorry to drone on. I think you get my point.
That's a great post.
It occurred to me that given the mix of needs, the best place to site a fab in Canada might be the Ottawa Valley, outside Ottawa.
Ottawa has a population of 1.5M and always attracts a surprisingly large surplus of physicists, chemists and engineers with PhDs more than anywhere else on the continent. It has a decent, efficient airport, and cheaper land than Canada's larger cities. Housing prices are high compared to similar US cities, but not horrible. Lots of electrical and water supply surpluses, and a few industries that use specialty gases.
Most importantly, due to treaty structures, the lower part of the Valley actually doesn't have nearly the First Nations de facto veto issues present in much of the country.
Seismically may not be the best choice though.
I disagree. Canada's most opportune sighting *by far* is in Waterloo. The city is the birthplace of the Blackberry, the universities and colleges are optimized on high-tech, and it's an hour's drive from Toronto. The region is not only high-tech, it's also historically Canada's manufacturing cradle too, especially if you include Brantford.
I've posted detailed reference elsewhere in this string.
The numbers though are even better for Alberta, specifically the Calgary region. Cheaper land and lower taxes. Less red tape. Less NIMBY. An abundance of engineers. It's much closer to Silicon Valley and Seattle (a day trip). The most secure energy supply in the world A more pro business environment. Much weaker private sector unions.
Calgary region's plusses for a fab are the abundance of PhD's in the chemical area, and low land prices. Water and energy are the achilles heel.
Alberta's is not the most secure electrical supply, by a fair margin. It's still largely based on fossil fuels, and Alberta isn't moving fast enough to change that. Anyone who needs a lot of electricity has to be concerned about Alberta's stance on fossil fuels given the disruption that is coming on fast. Ironically, the likely solution will need to include nukes of some form, which also need the water that is relatively scarce in Alberta.
Then again, Arizona is going to get fabs, which makes little sense given the water situation.
Depends on how much water and the quality of that water. There is plenty of brine water underground in Alberta that isn't useful for human, or ag consumption for instance but could be useful for nuclear or industry.
For energy, Alberta sits on a large gas field, one of the largest uranium deposits in the world are next door in Saskatchewan, and it is most optimal place for solar and wind power in Canada. Alberta will be fine on the water and energy front.
Isn't Waterloo full of vampires?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXwRgnZ990I
Is that you William, as I have to wonder, he makes more sense than you do.
have asked this question many times on SA.
based on the comments here, the disagreements seem more about where northwards will be best, versus 'we must be stupid since all fabs want to build in the desert'.
so not only will the fabs be fighting each other for water, but also voting residents that may (eventually) want priority.
What question have you asked, and what is SA?
SA=seeking alpha....
which has so many articles on semicon that a few are actually good.
I've heard from YIMBYs up there that things aren't _great_. Vancouver and Toronto are both pretty hard to build in, and same for the nearby suburbs. But I bet you could do something on open land near Winnipeg pretty easily.
The downside of course would be: Then you would be in Winnipeg. (It's beautiful, but there's a reason people also jokingly call it "Winterpeg".)
Calgary and Edmonton probably make more sense given they are larger, already have the presence of large multinational firms and don't hit -40C close to as frequently.
Also Office towers in Calgary are still basically free, so if they want one of those I suspect they could get it for the backtaxes.
Calgary is only a million people. That limits the labour pool. Better to go with Greater Toronto or Greater Montreal.
Calgary and Edmonton metro areas are both over 1.5 million people each, depending on which numbers you look at, and Alberta is over 4.5M total.
So not the largest centres in Canada, but given the point of this exercise in importing the people to run it, I think the drastically lower housing costs, and marginally better schools and tax rates would make it more attractive.
Alberta's population is moot; People won't be commuting to a factory in Calgary from Edmonton or Lethbridge.
There's no point in having lower taxes if you can't get the workers; businesses don't care about the quality of local high schools. (Or if you mean universities, the GTA obviously has more skilled graduates available).
And *Toronto* housing prices aren't the same as *Greater Toronto* housing prices.
Calgary has 1.6 million people in the metro. Not much less than the Portland area. It's cheaper, lower taxes and prettier than the Ontario centres as well, and with better K-12 schools. On paper Alberta wins.
Hahahaha enjoy being forced to engage in business in French only. You guys! Do some basic research first!
Oh no, a few managers from TWSC who have neither French not English as a first language will have to learn French to talk with some Montreal-area workers...
Noah’s whole point is that Canada, almost uniquely, will likely be happy to just import the labor pool they need. So they can kinda stick it wherever they want if that’s true.
Better hope there isn’t 4 more years of Danielle Smith.
I mean shes a lunatic, but most of these companies willingly invest in Red States. So I don't think having Canadian Kyrsten Sinema is a blocker.
Whatever faults Sinema has, she hasn’t proposed kickstarting a constitutional crisis for the lolz.
Yeah, this. Brian Potter had a great post recently looking at skyscraper construction speed in many countries and cities across the world, and Canada was literally the slowest:
https://constructionphysics.substack.com/p/which-city-builds-skyscrapers-the
I'm not sure Canada is the paradise of "no veto and fast construction" Noah is making it out to be. Now Japan?? That's your country if you want to build big complex things quickly and well.
A factory isn't a skyscraper.:-)
There would be no problem in the municipalities around Toronto. Zoning is already in place; large land parcel is are available. Just need to show your building meets code requirements and away you go.
The issue isn't building the plant, its having places for the people working there to sleep that aren't 15 times the median Salary in Ontario.
Waterloo. Look it up.
... and yet Amazon does it while paying far less than people at a chip fab plant would get.
Desperate immigrants
Nope. Pretty broad section of the population.
Located an hour's drive (or GO commuter train ride) from Toronto:
Government of Canada invests $7.5 million in Kitchener-Waterloo tech sector
From: Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario
https://www.canada.ca/en/economic-development-southern-ontario/news/2022/10/government-of-canada-invests-75-million-in-kitchener-waterloo-tech-sector.html
[Kitchener-Waterloo is one of the fastest growing innovation hubs in the world, consisting of more than 1,500 tech-related businesses. The region's tech sector is predicted to reach 24,000 workers by 2025.]
Oct 7, 2022
That's a pittance mostly for an attempt at political relevance, $Bs have been invested in Waterloo over the years for tech development. Announcements of of further investment are pending.
Correct.
Is your username from living in the Great White North? :-D
A few geographical corrections:
Eastern Alberta does not have plenty of water. You probably meant "Ontario and Manitoba."
Alberta is not in Central Canada. Manitoba really isn't either, by most definitions of the term.
Yes, in terms of immigration, Canada is more reminiscent of the bustling US before the 1930s.. Those immigrants almost exclusively go to Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. None of them are very seismically stable, although Toronto is the best on that front. Some of Greater Toronto's satellite cities however are in Canada's tornado alley.
The Canadian shield is quite seismically stable. It's not close to Vancouver or Toronto.
Two important factors not considered in the above:
- Move to Montreal, and any immigrants would need to speak French in the workplace, because it has more than 25 employees.
- If you want to build a project of this size, it will attract the interest of the First Nations industry. If you think it takes a long time to build in the USA, in Canada First Nations have to be consulted, especially anywhere on or near the Canadian shield, and they have a de facto veto. Getting anything done would be 10-15 years in court. For large-scale projects to take place in Canada, governments must negotiate with First Nations, and both are incentivized to "negotiate", but never settle. So large-scale private projects are almost impossible.
To give you an idea of how bad it is, two examples are:
- in 2015, neither Canada nor the US had LNG terminals. With North America's shale revolution generating copious excess production, the scramble was on. Since then, the US has built 6 terminals, much of which will now go to Germany. Canada might get one terminal finished by 2025; the incomplete pipeline is subject to blockades and industrial sabotage.
- Canada is home to most of the metals needed for the EV revolution at global scale, and in deposits so profitable, they could vault Canada's GDP by up to 10% for decades. Developers have been trying to get mines operating since 1998, but have faced blockades, kidnappings, murders, FN de facto vetoes and a plethora of court cases for 25 years. More than one operator has lost >$500M in development costs before giving up on governments and FNs ever getting serious.
The US is nowhere near as development friendly as Taiwan or South Korea. Notice how well both have developed compared to North America since 1960. But for decades, Canada has been far, far less development friendly than the US.
This is blocker I did not know about. I assumed they existed and only dig into the comments section to figure out what they were. Thanks!
Where there's a will, there's a way. With Canada and the US developing such barnacles on development, big projects increasingly need solid, extended political support. This is much more like the rest of the world than it used to be.
Canada is disappointingly a build-nothing country as well. It may be politically a little different mix, but the overall vibe is a center-left government that pays lip service to key issues, but equally incapable of actually organizing people to make progress. Vetocracy all the way. It's a great idea were the existing residents interested in organizing and building a new industry. From what I see here on the ground, the immigration policy is not connected to any sort of industrial policy.
[From what I see here on the ground, the immigration policy is not connected to any sort of industrial policy.]
Really?
FSWP: Immigrate to Canada under the Federal Skilled Worker Program
Last updated: 14 March 2023
[Under Express Entry, Canada aims to welcome over 110,000 immigrants by 2024. Most successful Express Entry candidates immigrate to Canada through the FSWP. Research by the Canadian government shows that FSWP immigrants go on to have successful and fulfilling careers in Canada.]
[...]
https://www.canadavisa.com/federal-skilled-worker-program-fswp.html
Canada's primary immigration program is tied to sectoral labour demand, rather than some other industrial policy, but that targeting is arguably a form of industrial policy itself.
Canada doesn't have much of an industrial policy otherwise, beyond (routinely disastrous) military procurement and the political necessity of spreading (dis-productive) pork geographically as 'regional economic development'.
As for Canada's current federal government, it is not a matter of being incapable of organizing people to make progress, it is almost completely uninterested in progress. It is a curious form of virtual government, invested entirely in signaling as an end unto itself, but uninterested in almost anything else, and allergic to any productive achievement or economic performance.
It has nearly perfected this form, and doesn't face a robustly competitive opposition, thus no need to improve.
I don't see why this wouldn't work. But as a Canadian I'm not a fan of the idea of Canada as America-Tech-lite where workers can be paid a lot less (in high COL cities).
The Canadian government is glad to maintain these ludicrous immigration levels since the gov is captured by large business interests who want wages suppressed (and also more consumers for our oligopolies in telecom, groceries, banking, etc). Many Canadians, especially younger ones who are less likely to have secure housing, don't support that level of immigration.
The trope of Canadian tech workers being cheaper to pay is insulting, especially in the context of how high the cost of living is in Vancouver and Toronto. Many Canadian tech workers take remote US jobs, or just move to the US.
Median pay in software engineering in Vancouver is half what it is in Silicon Valley.
>The trope of Canadian tech workers being cheaper to pay is insulting<
It's not a "trope." Professional wages in Canada are indeed lower than in the US (that's the case with most countries compared to the US). Technology workers are no exception.
On the other hand, your healthcare coverage can't be taken away, and you've got sane gun laws and affordable college.
You are assuming the health care is any good, that Canada's gun laws are sane (as opposed to a mish mash virtue signalling mess) and that college is "affordable."
I'm not "assuming" those three things. I'm asserting them. Because they're true.
(Hint: saying a country does *better* than the US in some areas isn't the same as claiming it does those things *perfectly* — there's always room for improvement!)
Hahahaha you obviously don’t know much about Canadian red tape
Canada’s housing crisis is way, way worse than the US.
*in two cities
Outside of the GTA and Vancouver things are still sane
Not just those cities, the issue is really bad anywhere you'd wanna set up shop in Ontario or bc, not just their capitals. Calgary or Edmonton seem like the only potentially viable options imo
https://wowa.ca/reports/canada-housing-market
Noah specifically mentioned those cities. Good luck getting a fab set up and manned in Regina or Fredericton.
"Central Canada is also home to some safe and diverse major population centers — Toronto and Calgary"
Note Calgary is neither of those two cities.
Actually the plant is next to a lake and transportation hub
And what do you really know about az summer
Go from your ac home to your ac automobile then to your ac work place and ac malls costco ect
No fanny freeze in winter
US, Canada plan North American chip corridor, starting with IBM expansion
March 24 (Reuters) - The United States and Canada said on Friday they would work together to create a bilateral semiconductor manufacturing corridor, as International Business Machines (IBM.N) signaled its intent to expand in Canada.
[...]
The Canadian government will spend C$250 million ($181.94 million) on its domestic semiconductor industry to boost research and development and manufacturing, the prime minister's office said in a statement.
[...]
https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-canada-plan-north-american-chip-corridor-starting-with-ibm-expansion-2023-03-24/
For Canada, Waterloo is probably the best locale for this.
[...]
[According to CBRE, a larger share of Waterloo’s employment is high-tech than any of these cities. We didn’t cherry-pick, either. These comparators are among the top-ranked talent markets in the United States, according to . Waterloo has a greater density of tech talent than the Austin, Detroit or Columbus. We didn’t include it on the chart, but Waterloo also has a higher concentration of tech workers than Seattle or Denver, too. When it comes to talent density, Waterloo is the top mid-sized tech hub in North America.
[...]
One thing that really defines the is its sheer size. Yes, it’s highly rated, but it also has 10,000+ engineering students. It has about 4,000 computer science students. Among the comparison communities we listed above, it’s a clear leader, with only University of Michigan – Ann Arbor and Arizona State University – which has a very low global ranking for engineering – above us. No one comes close to UWaterloo’s computer science enrollment. It isn’t just about quantity, either (more about that on our next chart!). These are some of the best tech students you’ll find in North America and just about every graduate finishes with That helps explain why it’s one of Silicon Valley’s top recruitment schools.]
[...]
https://www.waterlooedc.ca/blog/five-charts-waterloo-tech-hub
Waterloo is an hour's drive from Toronto, and looking to attract industry exactly as this blog proposes. The area is already deeply into photovoltaic R and D:
Centre for Advanced Photovoltaic and Display Systems (CAPDS) at the University of Waterloo.
[CAPDS promotes cutting edge research, training, and technology development in photovoltaic energy conversion and advanced display systems. We aim to be part of the solutions for these key sectors of the future.
Located at the University of Waterloo (UW), right at the heart of Canada's Technology Triangle area, the CAPDS is a 14000 square-foot state-of-the-art research facility with dedicated infrastructure for materials and devices research in the fields of photovoltaics and displays.]
[...]
https://www.capds.uwaterloo.ca/services.htm
Why do so many grads leave KW then?
To find employment. Best you think about that.
Oddly, the US doesn't attract many tech grads from Alberta. I wonder why that could be?
This was then (2016), the biz for software workers (as opposed to chip) has completely reversed:
There should be consequences for Ontario grads leaving Canada: CEOs
JANE TABER (Globe and Mail)
TORONTO
PUBLISHED JUNE 23, 2016
[...]
[Benjamin Bergen, CCI's executive director, said government policies are needed to retain talented grads in Canada.
"We must look at Ontario's heavily subsidized tuition as not just a carrot but also a stick, in critical subjects such as computer engineering," he said. "We should examine if an Ontario graduate leaves for Silicon Valley, the merits of reclaiming our collective investment in their education and repurposing these funds to make Canadian tech salaries more competitive."
The group has not provided specific examples of how money could be repaid, but it believes there needs to be a public-policy solution to the problem.
Statistics to back up its claims of a brain drain are hard to find, and most of the concern is based on anecdotal evidence. But high-tech CEOs, especially in the Kitchener-Waterloo area of Ontario, say hiring talented people is a problem because University of Waterloo graduates are in high demand in California.
"I'm all for giving free education … but there need to be prerequisites," said Dan Latendre, CEO of Igloo Software, a company he started in 2008 in Waterloo. He has 125 employees and 30 job openings for technology positions, quality assurance and even executives because he can't find talented people to fill them.
In fact, he has had to outsource some of his work to an eight-member team in Poland. Next year, he said he expects to spend between $1.5-million to $2-million in outsource development.]
[...]
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/there-should-be-consequences-for-ontario-grads-leaving-canada-ceos/article30597475/
Wages for engineers of all stripes are much better in Alberta than in Ontario. You can't throw a rock in Calgary or Fort McMurray without hitting an Ontario trained engineer.
The value proposition for an Ontario resident engineer who wants/needs to stay in Canada for Alberta is too great to ignore. Much healthier wages, better opportunity for career growth for young engineers, lower taxes, much lower housing costs, better schools, etc. It's hard to ignore. Ontario has priced itself out for those who are mobile.
Exactly. So why would an off-shore high-tech industry want to start-up in in a region of higher than average wage demand?
Meantime:
[Where is the Silicon Valley of Canada?
The Toronto-Waterloo Corridor is the largest tech cluster in North America outside of Silicon Valley. It's bigger than Boston, New York or Seattle. It's far larger than other tech hubs like Pittsburgh or Columbus. Canada doesn't do much on an American scale, but the Toronto-Waterloo Corridor is an exception.]
Feb 16, 2023
https://www.waterlooedc.ca/blog/what-is-toronto-waterloo-corridor
So Waterloo being the "dollar store version of Silicon Valley" is their big sell?
I don't know... Ontario has an abundance of talent, and way easier to bring them in from overseas than the US, but the red tape, taxes cost of doing business in Ontario, are some of the highest on the continent. More so than Arizona or Alberta (or Texas)
Overall i suspect a chip fan would look a lot more like am automotive assembly plant from a workforce structure than a software company. Southwestern ON would be good from a land, water, low but not quite shield low seismic activity.
Alberta is more water constrained but still possible (and cheaper).
I don't think anywhere else has the pop base and colleges / universities to really train out a workforce.
It terms of building something, Ontario would be all over something equivalent to a new auto plant, esp in a different industry if it were a serious possibility. I doubt it has been considered serious so far though.
USA: we will mandate that new semiconductor factories must provide childcare facilities.
Canada: everywhere has $10/day childcare already.
The USA is so afraid of universal benefits that it will twist itself in knots to get more places with benefits....
Excellent analysis of how 🤔 the chip problems could be a win-win for everyone 😀 if they would just common sense instead of greed determining how to have our own stable base of chip manufacturing here in North America 🌎 🇺🇸
Ontario (especially Toronto) is just as hellish to build anything as it is in the US. Maybe in the eastern provinces this might work.
The az plant is being built by local contractors
And building housing for its people that are comming over
And TSMC is hiring us born engineer s
With climate change, Arizona summers are going to be nasty. And there are serious questions about water supply.
Arizona summers are *already* nasty, to be fair. For kicks I once looked into the population of Phoenix versus the deployment of air conditioning and as far as I can tell artificial cooling is basically the only reason the city exists.