The role of the Proud Boys, Boogaloo Boys, and the police themselves in instigating violence, rioting, and vandalism has just been completely memory-holed, and appreciate that this article at least mentions that they played a role, but it needs more discussion.
Noah, I don't think many of your paid subscribers thought we were in a civil war. Maybe you wanted to run this on Fox News? =)
One of the things I appreciate about your commentary is that, while you are left-leaning (like me), you really try to see the other perspective, rather than just assume bad faith.
I wanted to offer that you missed one key piece of the right-wing perspective on the Floyd protests. Namely, that these occurred during a period of mandated social distancing and lockdowns. Contemporaneously, right-wing protests against the lockdowns themselves were put down comparatively quite harshly.
I personally marched down Manhattan's 8th Avenue with BLM protestors that Summer. That's the side I'm on. I still don't have a hard time seeing why the mere fact that these protests were allowed at all is enraging to the political right.
Great article and it addresses and important point, namely that it was nowhere near a civil war and was actually less violent than most past mass protests. In fact, both protesters and police were much less violent than the prior large civil disturbances. In addition, the COVID pandemic and lockdowns leading up the protests likely played a huge role in exacerbating the violence that did occur.
That said, I was in a building that was set on fire by protestors (there was very little danger, but it was interesting at the time) and watched several times as protesters blockaded the exits to police buildings and lit them on fire. This happened several times, as did violence against private politically oriented buildings (a police union in Portland was lit on fire so many times it had to move out of the city and Democratic political offices were also vandalized, and Seattle and Minn. both had extensive damage).
Finally, you mention the CHAZ but I think is worth noting that armed gunmen took over a large portion of a major city. This action was applauded and called "the summer of love" by local politicians. Until "security forces" and other elements killed and injured each other. This set a horrible precedent (what would it be like if armed right wing insurgents held a section of a major city for several weeks). I am always amazed at how this (and the politically motivated arsons) are downplayed. Taking over parts of cities with armed groups is no more OK than interfering with an election. Both are horrific and should be called out.
So, it is worth remembering that some fairly important norms around taking over parts of the US were broken. I would argue that anyone concerned about t January 6, and I am very concerned about acts aimed at suborning an election, need to remember that.
The rule of law exists precisely to prevent this kind of tit for tat violence. If one group is allowed to take over portions of major cities with armed gunman, the other political group will feel empowered to disrupt elections they believe to be fraudulent. It does not matter that they are wrong, in fact the reason we have a rule of law precisely because people will do stupid things particularly when they are wrong. We agree to disagree on a huge number of issues but then have institutions (that seem to be continually under attack) to resolve these issues. We should not engage in political violence and when one side does this it should be called out by all of us. This is something that both political parties seem to either support or ignore.
While some individuals acquitted themselves well in 2020/21, I think the big takeaway for all of us should be that very few organizations held up under the pressure. If we want to avoid something becoming a civil war later, we will all need to do better.
Democrats contested the elections of 2000 and 2004. They refused to acknowledge Trump as the legitimate president in 2016. Abrams refused to concede defeat. Governors and Secretary of States changed state election laws unconstitutionally. They have refused to this date to allow inspection of signed affidavits for address changes in states like MI and GA. Thousands of witnesses saying they saw irregularities. GPS data of ballot mules going back and forth to drop boxes. If there's a civil war, make no mistake, the Uniparty (left and RINOs) were the ones who fired the first shot.
Thanks Noah. However the belief that we are in Civil War is created by the incessant fear-mongering of the media which by and large is overwhelmingly controlled by the left.
Biden proclaiming 'white supremacists are the biggest threat to American Democracy' and the leftist media ignoring everything exposed by the Twitter files and ignoring all Hunter Bidens transgressions are some of the most absurd handlings of news. China is a much bigger threat to our Democracy and corrupt politicians an even bigger threat.
Trump might say things that people find crazy (because they are being brainwashed by the media) and he does sound like a moron most of the time, but the man is trying to avert war while the anti-war party of Democrats actively PUSH for continued war in Ukraine.
When Cuba got attacked by the US and they asked for Russian support afterwards, the US was threati y having it's biggest enemy on it's door step. We faced them head on. Putin is doing the same in Ukraine. Ukraine wants Putins enemy to setup shop 200 mi from Moscow. We did exactly what Putin is doing now. The West thinking Russia will let Ukraine join NATO without going to war are delusional. And the US pushing NATO for Ukraine inclusion is what instigated this. NATO is not interested in having Ukraine join (they are way too corrupt and we are only using it to antagonize Putin) and will not allow it in the future either.
It also seems that you forget that the Democrats disputed Trumps win and FALSELY claimed Russian interferences and tried to make everyone believe Trump and Putin are BFFs. The Democrats lied and used US intelligence agencies to fabricate false stories of Trump-Russia collusion to win the election. Why do you think Republicans would not dispute an election if they lose? How about Al Gore disputing the election outcome in 2000 and asking for repeated recounts of ballots?
The thing about the Floyd riots/protests was not the riots or the protests. It was the sudden normalization of fringe ideologies that scapegoat our country, our society, and the majority of people in it. And it was the discovery of an elite to push these ideas forward as respectable and to trigger political action along their lines, though they are detestable to a large percentage of our society. *That* is what the right is mobilizing against.
If more widely accepted these ideologies would make it impossible for us with our differences to live together in the same country. At that point, I suppose you could call it civil war.
The other thing that gets lost in almost every account, including this one - is that the Portland protests were violent BECAUSE OF PROVOCATION by right wing agitators, like members of Patriot Prayer who had spent the previous few years consistently provoking fights with left wing youths in downtown Portland. By far the majority of participants in the protests were peaceful - people organized food and water donations, barbecued to feed the crowds, and danced on the lawns near the protest sites, made funny signs, brought their oh-so-Portland sense of humor to the Moms Protest and Dad leaf blower phalanxes. Not that there weren't some hyped up Antifa Black Blok types - unfortunately it's pretty easy in an extremely polarized climate to get young men (sorry I would say 99% male and 99% quite young) to really relish violent confrontation. But by and large (and I lived here through all of it) the violence was EXTREMELY localized (like a 10 block radius if that) - provoked every night by the incursion of right wing agitators, and Trump-dispatched violent, unidentified and way over-the-line security forces. Those of us in the rest of the city either went to the protests until early evening, then hived off home before things got crazy, or participated in the many completely nonviolent marches (and even 'car parades') that occurred regularly elsewhere in the city and were safer and quieter for families, older people and others. I am still gobsmacked by the number of people who insist Portland is a violent hellhole when the violent parts of the protests were localized, small and conducted mostly between two sets of testosterone-fueled agitators who were not supported by the vast majority of peaceful protestors. Portland has other problems but it is still a beautiful place with a vibrant and peaceful municipal culture . The protests were never a city-wide 'riot' - and the preponderance of protestors were peaceful, and simply outraged by the police conduct in the George Floyd case - and in Portland itself where the police force was not trusted by many citizens because of its bullying attitude and apparent racial discrimination.
This suggests, by the way, that cops should spend more time protecting stores during protests, and less time policing the protesters themselves.
This ought to be one of the key points of policing reform, not what not to do (shoot or rough up unarmed civilians) but what they should do deter people from committing crimes and arrest those who do. Of course this is not just during protests. That's the job every day.
Glenn Loury is entitled to be appalled that there were any riots at all. But as I said on Twitter at the time it's a mistake to confuse a mass movement which represented however briefly a realization that racism had real impact in the people's lives with the country coming apart much less to describe everything that happened dismissively by "the riots".
Humble suggestion: limit comments to paid subscribers. This comment section used to be very informative and educational(and friendly), but is feeling more and more like twitter these days.
“Mostly peaceful”. Queue the chyron of cities burning. What a joke. Unsubscribing.
The role of the Proud Boys, Boogaloo Boys, and the police themselves in instigating violence, rioting, and vandalism has just been completely memory-holed, and appreciate that this article at least mentions that they played a role, but it needs more discussion.
Noah, I don't think many of your paid subscribers thought we were in a civil war. Maybe you wanted to run this on Fox News? =)
One of the things I appreciate about your commentary is that, while you are left-leaning (like me), you really try to see the other perspective, rather than just assume bad faith.
I wanted to offer that you missed one key piece of the right-wing perspective on the Floyd protests. Namely, that these occurred during a period of mandated social distancing and lockdowns. Contemporaneously, right-wing protests against the lockdowns themselves were put down comparatively quite harshly.
I personally marched down Manhattan's 8th Avenue with BLM protestors that Summer. That's the side I'm on. I still don't have a hard time seeing why the mere fact that these protests were allowed at all is enraging to the political right.
Great article and it addresses and important point, namely that it was nowhere near a civil war and was actually less violent than most past mass protests. In fact, both protesters and police were much less violent than the prior large civil disturbances. In addition, the COVID pandemic and lockdowns leading up the protests likely played a huge role in exacerbating the violence that did occur.
That said, I was in a building that was set on fire by protestors (there was very little danger, but it was interesting at the time) and watched several times as protesters blockaded the exits to police buildings and lit them on fire. This happened several times, as did violence against private politically oriented buildings (a police union in Portland was lit on fire so many times it had to move out of the city and Democratic political offices were also vandalized, and Seattle and Minn. both had extensive damage).
Finally, you mention the CHAZ but I think is worth noting that armed gunmen took over a large portion of a major city. This action was applauded and called "the summer of love" by local politicians. Until "security forces" and other elements killed and injured each other. This set a horrible precedent (what would it be like if armed right wing insurgents held a section of a major city for several weeks). I am always amazed at how this (and the politically motivated arsons) are downplayed. Taking over parts of cities with armed groups is no more OK than interfering with an election. Both are horrific and should be called out.
So, it is worth remembering that some fairly important norms around taking over parts of the US were broken. I would argue that anyone concerned about t January 6, and I am very concerned about acts aimed at suborning an election, need to remember that.
The rule of law exists precisely to prevent this kind of tit for tat violence. If one group is allowed to take over portions of major cities with armed gunman, the other political group will feel empowered to disrupt elections they believe to be fraudulent. It does not matter that they are wrong, in fact the reason we have a rule of law precisely because people will do stupid things particularly when they are wrong. We agree to disagree on a huge number of issues but then have institutions (that seem to be continually under attack) to resolve these issues. We should not engage in political violence and when one side does this it should be called out by all of us. This is something that both political parties seem to either support or ignore.
While some individuals acquitted themselves well in 2020/21, I think the big takeaway for all of us should be that very few organizations held up under the pressure. If we want to avoid something becoming a civil war later, we will all need to do better.
Democrats contested the elections of 2000 and 2004. They refused to acknowledge Trump as the legitimate president in 2016. Abrams refused to concede defeat. Governors and Secretary of States changed state election laws unconstitutionally. They have refused to this date to allow inspection of signed affidavits for address changes in states like MI and GA. Thousands of witnesses saying they saw irregularities. GPS data of ballot mules going back and forth to drop boxes. If there's a civil war, make no mistake, the Uniparty (left and RINOs) were the ones who fired the first shot.
Thanks Noah. However the belief that we are in Civil War is created by the incessant fear-mongering of the media which by and large is overwhelmingly controlled by the left.
Biden proclaiming 'white supremacists are the biggest threat to American Democracy' and the leftist media ignoring everything exposed by the Twitter files and ignoring all Hunter Bidens transgressions are some of the most absurd handlings of news. China is a much bigger threat to our Democracy and corrupt politicians an even bigger threat.
Trump might say things that people find crazy (because they are being brainwashed by the media) and he does sound like a moron most of the time, but the man is trying to avert war while the anti-war party of Democrats actively PUSH for continued war in Ukraine.
When Cuba got attacked by the US and they asked for Russian support afterwards, the US was threati y having it's biggest enemy on it's door step. We faced them head on. Putin is doing the same in Ukraine. Ukraine wants Putins enemy to setup shop 200 mi from Moscow. We did exactly what Putin is doing now. The West thinking Russia will let Ukraine join NATO without going to war are delusional. And the US pushing NATO for Ukraine inclusion is what instigated this. NATO is not interested in having Ukraine join (they are way too corrupt and we are only using it to antagonize Putin) and will not allow it in the future either.
It also seems that you forget that the Democrats disputed Trumps win and FALSELY claimed Russian interferences and tried to make everyone believe Trump and Putin are BFFs. The Democrats lied and used US intelligence agencies to fabricate false stories of Trump-Russia collusion to win the election. Why do you think Republicans would not dispute an election if they lose? How about Al Gore disputing the election outcome in 2000 and asking for repeated recounts of ballots?
The thing about the Floyd riots/protests was not the riots or the protests. It was the sudden normalization of fringe ideologies that scapegoat our country, our society, and the majority of people in it. And it was the discovery of an elite to push these ideas forward as respectable and to trigger political action along their lines, though they are detestable to a large percentage of our society. *That* is what the right is mobilizing against.
If more widely accepted these ideologies would make it impossible for us with our differences to live together in the same country. At that point, I suppose you could call it civil war.
The other thing that gets lost in almost every account, including this one - is that the Portland protests were violent BECAUSE OF PROVOCATION by right wing agitators, like members of Patriot Prayer who had spent the previous few years consistently provoking fights with left wing youths in downtown Portland. By far the majority of participants in the protests were peaceful - people organized food and water donations, barbecued to feed the crowds, and danced on the lawns near the protest sites, made funny signs, brought their oh-so-Portland sense of humor to the Moms Protest and Dad leaf blower phalanxes. Not that there weren't some hyped up Antifa Black Blok types - unfortunately it's pretty easy in an extremely polarized climate to get young men (sorry I would say 99% male and 99% quite young) to really relish violent confrontation. But by and large (and I lived here through all of it) the violence was EXTREMELY localized (like a 10 block radius if that) - provoked every night by the incursion of right wing agitators, and Trump-dispatched violent, unidentified and way over-the-line security forces. Those of us in the rest of the city either went to the protests until early evening, then hived off home before things got crazy, or participated in the many completely nonviolent marches (and even 'car parades') that occurred regularly elsewhere in the city and were safer and quieter for families, older people and others. I am still gobsmacked by the number of people who insist Portland is a violent hellhole when the violent parts of the protests were localized, small and conducted mostly between two sets of testosterone-fueled agitators who were not supported by the vast majority of peaceful protestors. Portland has other problems but it is still a beautiful place with a vibrant and peaceful municipal culture . The protests were never a city-wide 'riot' - and the preponderance of protestors were peaceful, and simply outraged by the police conduct in the George Floyd case - and in Portland itself where the police force was not trusted by many citizens because of its bullying attitude and apparent racial discrimination.
And when people have a reason to be happy:
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/super-bowl-lii-destruction-in-philadelphia-was-a-white-riot
This suggests, by the way, that cops should spend more time protecting stores during protests, and less time policing the protesters themselves.
This ought to be one of the key points of policing reform, not what not to do (shoot or rough up unarmed civilians) but what they should do deter people from committing crimes and arrest those who do. Of course this is not just during protests. That's the job every day.
I'm getting a Norton malicious web site popup.
Fyi.
Great awesome article
Glenn Loury is entitled to be appalled that there were any riots at all. But as I said on Twitter at the time it's a mistake to confuse a mass movement which represented however briefly a realization that racism had real impact in the people's lives with the country coming apart much less to describe everything that happened dismissively by "the riots".
Humble suggestion: limit comments to paid subscribers. This comment section used to be very informative and educational(and friendly), but is feeling more and more like twitter these days.
I'll be honest, as a Brit I was just fed up that it became such a media talking point over here.
Thanks for the clarifications and information.