No one responds to "hi" in SF because responding is extremely likely to get a solicitation for money.
As for lack of density being why SF is so split up - that might be a part, but I would ascribe Proposition 13 induced inequality to be a greater cause.
Go to Zillow and poke around the fanciest neighborhoods, like the top of Pacific Heights. You'll find many, many $5M+ properties where the owner pays $2500 in property tax. The same holds true everywhere else. This is multi-generational economic inequality - and generational economic inequality is one aspect of feudalism.
I moved out to SF in 2012. I was a causality of the Great Recession, unemployed living in my folks home at 29, when I found a 60k government job in San Mateo County. Knowing few people here I decided to take the plunge because I needed to get out in the world.
I never saw the social vibrancy that Noah mentioned in 2012. The City was always culturally segregated to me from day one. I've lived in Minneapolis, Chicago and upstate NY suburbs. All of them had more social interaction than SF.
It took me years to build a social life out here. Each friendship ended once people had a kid they had to move.
Now it is 2020, all the friends I made live in Sacramento, Inland Empire, etc. I wish I never moved here. The City is anti-family.
I laughed at the thought of saying hi to a stranger in SF. But then I realized that this is something I did all the time when I lived in Boulder for 6 months during the pandemic. I guess I never *really* realized how fundamentally messed up this city is, and I think about how messed up this city is all the time (I made that zoning map in your post).
I have met and talked to people who are not part of my in-group, such as artists, usually at bars or parties. About half the time, they are upset to find out that I work in tech, because of that popular meme that tech is responsible for all the problems of SF, loudly promoted by the people who are actually responsible for the problems. Those experiences made me less willing to meet people outside my social circle.
I biked in NYC for 7 years without anyone ever yelling at me. During a year of biking in SF, I was yelled at several times simply for existing. I was breaking no law, it was just drivers upset that a bicycle was on THEIR road, perhaps forcing them to do a lane change to go around me. The horror!
I am also considering moving somewhere else. I really don't want to, because I can see the potential for what an amazing place SF could be. But it seems like the people who live here want everything to remain the same for ever and ever, and can't even imagine any change having a positive impact. And I don't know how to fix this - if people view any change as an assault on their way of life, it becomes so difficult to make positive changes that their fear becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I will humbly suggest where I am, Albuquerque (and NM more broadly) — perfect weather, cheap rents, low cost of living, tons of outdoor stuff, awesome vibes (much friendlier than either of the coasts), and delicious food. Think an affordable combo of Arizona and Colorado. Transit is, well, American, but our long-overdue BRT system is finally in service and the oldest, most walkable neighborhoods are along its corridor, along with Amtrak and (too infrequent) regional rail to Santa Fe. For the price, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better value city IMHO.
I've lived in Oakland for the past nine years and rarely go back to SF intentionally. Oakland has a lot more of a sense of community -- and a lot of the same problems as SF, but a bit more watered down.
I travel all over the US. Can live wherever I want as well. SF isn’t even on my top 100 places to live. I’m not a big city guy, but if I was, I’d choose San Diego.
Plenty of mid sized hidden gems out there. Louisville KY is pretty awesome. East Tennessee, Savanna, Ga, I got money on West Colorado booming. Allentown, Pa.
Boise, Idaho is definitely overrated. Idaho is full anyway. Tell your friends. That’s if they haven’t already moved here.
Man. I am a definite say hi and strike up conversations with strangers type of guy. Makes me sad.
Tokyo seems awesome. My niece spent a year there and loved it. Expat communities are always diverse.
Other international cities I’d live in. Christchurch, NZ. Cali, Colombia, Anywhere in The Netherlands.
I moved to NYC years ago and will not give it up. The only place in the US I ever thought I could move to was SF, but no more. (I am Mexican, and recently became American as well)
My Japan trip for next year is taking shape. Do you have an update to the essay you wrote a few years back? Want to make sure I hit all the right places.
I've been there off and on since 1972, when Golden Gate Park was full of hippies addicted to heroin living on the streets, lived there for a while in 1990-91, been there since sometimes. It's an incredible place with terrific energy. So much more crowded now than it was. But I always found it very easy to meet people and talk to people there. SF is anything goes, everything accepted.
I wonder if it is kind of like that everywhere right now. People are pulling in due to all the crises going on. Stress levels are through the roof. Maybe you should wait a while before you move, because if you can take the crowdiness and transportation issues there it is a great city. I think it will be back soon.
- BART that bad?! I'm probably an outlier here, but my experience with BART has been it could be better, but it's not terrible by American standards (which I know aren't great, but still). What specific KPI from the trains would you have liked to see improved that's not related to housing?
- Anecdotally, my partner's brother, who lives in San Fran, has started using an E-Bike to get to and from work. From what I can tell, he's loving it - as opposed to BART or Uber-Pool that he used before. First, is this bike-boom real in San Francisco? Also, from a high-level, do you think this has a positive impact on the transportation issues you mentioned?
- Oh shoot, are you really gonna move to Japan!? Good for you!
SF is socially weird for a variety of reasons. First of all, the politics of racial, class, and cultural resentment were in vogue in the Bay Area long before this ideology spread throughout the country. It's far easier to ignore/disdain the 'tech bro' when you've already dismissed him for his 'white privilege,' or the 'marina girl' once you've trashed her for 'living off daddy's money.' These attitudes necessarily bring about less desirable human emotions like envy, selfishness, and clannishness, further exacerbating the situation. Then there's the stupidly expensive rent, the powerful neighborhood organizations, and the attitude of 'I was here first, and now I will decide who lives here.' This dulls anyone's sense of empathy. This also causes/reinforces a workaholic culture leaving many folks very little free time to socialize other than will people they already know. And there aren't many 'cool' industries in the city, e.g. modeling, entertainment, that emphasize socializing. Then we have the crazy/homeless situation where everyone is one edge because they never know when they'll be confronted by a crazy person. The constantly changing weather and the craziness ensure women will rarely feel comfortable in public, and where women can't feel comfortable, no one will feel comfortable.
I guess I am more sympathetic to 50s-60s Jane Jacobs, who associated closeness with a suburban lifestyle. It seems that just seeing diverse faces on the streets is a great benefit to urban living. But I also wonder why people get creeped out by a simple and passing greeting. That is the linguistic function of a greeting: a chance to make verbal contact without a commitment to a dialogue. So I don't understand the anti-greeters, either. In short, one important benefit to the urban lifestyle is the opportunity for much low-intensity, no commitment, face-to-face contact. But isn't a simple greeting both low-intensity and no commitment? If that bothers people, there are plenty of suburbs to insulate people from this kind of contact. As a result, I disagree with the association of simple greetings with "closeness," but I do associate them with urban socialization.
I agree that SF has its problems. But this is a little overwrought.
“The rent is too high” is certainly true.
But I don’t about the rest of the generalizations. Maybe the waving was just too much. I nod and say “hi” to several people a day. And they typically do the same in return. I don’t see people yelling at each other. Then again, I don’t live in the Mission.
Man, that sounds so sad. I know nothing about SF except from the movies and recent news about how much they hate housing. I could never really get a good idea of what SF was between Haight Ashbury's hippie days, Dirty Harry's 44 magnum, Full House, The Game, and recent news about how much everyone hates new apartments.
Kind of sad to read your take on the city I love and have lived in and around since the 90's. Actually, I'm down the coast in Montara, but my wife, son and I have strolled just about every part of the city multiple times. I love all the diverse neighborhoods, but can understand the truth in a lot of what you say. I guess I don't have much to compare it to, since it's been home for so long. Maybe it's easier to love the city if you don't have to actually live in it. Montara is best of both worlds. Ocean and hills and a rural feel day to day, and the city there for the arts and culture any time I really want it (well, when the pandemic eventually ends anyway).
Hope you can stick it out a little longer, but sounds like you've made your decision. I hope Tokyo works out for you.
No one responds to "hi" in SF because responding is extremely likely to get a solicitation for money.
As for lack of density being why SF is so split up - that might be a part, but I would ascribe Proposition 13 induced inequality to be a greater cause.
Go to Zillow and poke around the fanciest neighborhoods, like the top of Pacific Heights. You'll find many, many $5M+ properties where the owner pays $2500 in property tax. The same holds true everywhere else. This is multi-generational economic inequality - and generational economic inequality is one aspect of feudalism.
I moved out to SF in 2012. I was a causality of the Great Recession, unemployed living in my folks home at 29, when I found a 60k government job in San Mateo County. Knowing few people here I decided to take the plunge because I needed to get out in the world.
I never saw the social vibrancy that Noah mentioned in 2012. The City was always culturally segregated to me from day one. I've lived in Minneapolis, Chicago and upstate NY suburbs. All of them had more social interaction than SF.
It took me years to build a social life out here. Each friendship ended once people had a kid they had to move.
Now it is 2020, all the friends I made live in Sacramento, Inland Empire, etc. I wish I never moved here. The City is anti-family.
I laughed at the thought of saying hi to a stranger in SF. But then I realized that this is something I did all the time when I lived in Boulder for 6 months during the pandemic. I guess I never *really* realized how fundamentally messed up this city is, and I think about how messed up this city is all the time (I made that zoning map in your post).
I have met and talked to people who are not part of my in-group, such as artists, usually at bars or parties. About half the time, they are upset to find out that I work in tech, because of that popular meme that tech is responsible for all the problems of SF, loudly promoted by the people who are actually responsible for the problems. Those experiences made me less willing to meet people outside my social circle.
I biked in NYC for 7 years without anyone ever yelling at me. During a year of biking in SF, I was yelled at several times simply for existing. I was breaking no law, it was just drivers upset that a bicycle was on THEIR road, perhaps forcing them to do a lane change to go around me. The horror!
I am also considering moving somewhere else. I really don't want to, because I can see the potential for what an amazing place SF could be. But it seems like the people who live here want everything to remain the same for ever and ever, and can't even imagine any change having a positive impact. And I don't know how to fix this - if people view any change as an assault on their way of life, it becomes so difficult to make positive changes that their fear becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I will humbly suggest where I am, Albuquerque (and NM more broadly) — perfect weather, cheap rents, low cost of living, tons of outdoor stuff, awesome vibes (much friendlier than either of the coasts), and delicious food. Think an affordable combo of Arizona and Colorado. Transit is, well, American, but our long-overdue BRT system is finally in service and the oldest, most walkable neighborhoods are along its corridor, along with Amtrak and (too infrequent) regional rail to Santa Fe. For the price, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better value city IMHO.
I've lived in Oakland for the past nine years and rarely go back to SF intentionally. Oakland has a lot more of a sense of community -- and a lot of the same problems as SF, but a bit more watered down.
I travel all over the US. Can live wherever I want as well. SF isn’t even on my top 100 places to live. I’m not a big city guy, but if I was, I’d choose San Diego.
Plenty of mid sized hidden gems out there. Louisville KY is pretty awesome. East Tennessee, Savanna, Ga, I got money on West Colorado booming. Allentown, Pa.
Boise, Idaho is definitely overrated. Idaho is full anyway. Tell your friends. That’s if they haven’t already moved here.
Man. I am a definite say hi and strike up conversations with strangers type of guy. Makes me sad.
Tokyo seems awesome. My niece spent a year there and loved it. Expat communities are always diverse.
Other international cities I’d live in. Christchurch, NZ. Cali, Colombia, Anywhere in The Netherlands.
Merry. Christmas.
Great sessay (sassy essay).
I moved to NYC years ago and will not give it up. The only place in the US I ever thought I could move to was SF, but no more. (I am Mexican, and recently became American as well)
My Japan trip for next year is taking shape. Do you have an update to the essay you wrote a few years back? Want to make sure I hit all the right places.
I've been there off and on since 1972, when Golden Gate Park was full of hippies addicted to heroin living on the streets, lived there for a while in 1990-91, been there since sometimes. It's an incredible place with terrific energy. So much more crowded now than it was. But I always found it very easy to meet people and talk to people there. SF is anything goes, everything accepted.
I wonder if it is kind of like that everywhere right now. People are pulling in due to all the crises going on. Stress levels are through the roof. Maybe you should wait a while before you move, because if you can take the crowdiness and transportation issues there it is a great city. I think it will be back soon.
LA is this but 10x worse
Four Things:
- Not sure if this is 100% the same, but Seattleites are notorious for their unfriendly nature (i.e. The Seattle Freeze): https://crosscut.com/video/mossbacks-northwest/true-history-seattle-freeze
- BART that bad?! I'm probably an outlier here, but my experience with BART has been it could be better, but it's not terrible by American standards (which I know aren't great, but still). What specific KPI from the trains would you have liked to see improved that's not related to housing?
- Anecdotally, my partner's brother, who lives in San Fran, has started using an E-Bike to get to and from work. From what I can tell, he's loving it - as opposed to BART or Uber-Pool that he used before. First, is this bike-boom real in San Francisco? Also, from a high-level, do you think this has a positive impact on the transportation issues you mentioned?
- Oh shoot, are you really gonna move to Japan!? Good for you!
SF is socially weird for a variety of reasons. First of all, the politics of racial, class, and cultural resentment were in vogue in the Bay Area long before this ideology spread throughout the country. It's far easier to ignore/disdain the 'tech bro' when you've already dismissed him for his 'white privilege,' or the 'marina girl' once you've trashed her for 'living off daddy's money.' These attitudes necessarily bring about less desirable human emotions like envy, selfishness, and clannishness, further exacerbating the situation. Then there's the stupidly expensive rent, the powerful neighborhood organizations, and the attitude of 'I was here first, and now I will decide who lives here.' This dulls anyone's sense of empathy. This also causes/reinforces a workaholic culture leaving many folks very little free time to socialize other than will people they already know. And there aren't many 'cool' industries in the city, e.g. modeling, entertainment, that emphasize socializing. Then we have the crazy/homeless situation where everyone is one edge because they never know when they'll be confronted by a crazy person. The constantly changing weather and the craziness ensure women will rarely feel comfortable in public, and where women can't feel comfortable, no one will feel comfortable.
I guess I am more sympathetic to 50s-60s Jane Jacobs, who associated closeness with a suburban lifestyle. It seems that just seeing diverse faces on the streets is a great benefit to urban living. But I also wonder why people get creeped out by a simple and passing greeting. That is the linguistic function of a greeting: a chance to make verbal contact without a commitment to a dialogue. So I don't understand the anti-greeters, either. In short, one important benefit to the urban lifestyle is the opportunity for much low-intensity, no commitment, face-to-face contact. But isn't a simple greeting both low-intensity and no commitment? If that bothers people, there are plenty of suburbs to insulate people from this kind of contact. As a result, I disagree with the association of simple greetings with "closeness," but I do associate them with urban socialization.
I agree that SF has its problems. But this is a little overwrought.
“The rent is too high” is certainly true.
But I don’t about the rest of the generalizations. Maybe the waving was just too much. I nod and say “hi” to several people a day. And they typically do the same in return. I don’t see people yelling at each other. Then again, I don’t live in the Mission.
Man, that sounds so sad. I know nothing about SF except from the movies and recent news about how much they hate housing. I could never really get a good idea of what SF was between Haight Ashbury's hippie days, Dirty Harry's 44 magnum, Full House, The Game, and recent news about how much everyone hates new apartments.
is seattle a city on the rise and is it similar to sf in its vibe?
Kind of sad to read your take on the city I love and have lived in and around since the 90's. Actually, I'm down the coast in Montara, but my wife, son and I have strolled just about every part of the city multiple times. I love all the diverse neighborhoods, but can understand the truth in a lot of what you say. I guess I don't have much to compare it to, since it's been home for so long. Maybe it's easier to love the city if you don't have to actually live in it. Montara is best of both worlds. Ocean and hills and a rural feel day to day, and the city there for the arts and culture any time I really want it (well, when the pandemic eventually ends anyway).
Hope you can stick it out a little longer, but sounds like you've made your decision. I hope Tokyo works out for you.