This bill seems like a great opportunity for America to have a hard conversation with itself about the balance of individual rights in the form of freedom of speech and the collective good in the form of a strong democracy.
Another good call, Noah. Trump doing a 180' on China--or at least on a key instrument of CCP soft power--is pretty significant.
It's simply further confirmation that Trump is indeed a KGB (or FSB if you prefer) asset, doing what he thinks Moscow Centre wants. Which isn't hard for him to figure out, as Tik Tok is Chinese, the new BFF of Putin's Russia--for whom he bent over backwards for, from Helsinki onwards as '45. That there's maybe a little money in it for him--from Yass or others invested in Tik Tok--is just gravy.
The natsec GOP have already fully prostituted themselves to the Trump anti-NATO/pro-Putin agenda. For no other reason than to hold onto power. They may "style" themselves natsec hawks--especially those with military bases and factories in their districts--but the overarching purpose of their party is tax breaks for the very rich and corporations. They've no doubt rationalized that defending American National Security is indeed a noble cause; but that at the present time it's simply not worth losing their seats over.
If FOX News suddenly reversed their anti-Ukraine/pro-Russia output--or even just toned it down a bit--might signal that the natsec business and political establishment is something that Republicans on the Hill still stand behind. But RW media is now solidly MAGA.
Without American aid, Ukraine will not last for long. Which is exactly what Putin and therefore Trump wants. Wherever the armistice that will come draws the new Russian-Ukraine border, will be the new Bamboo Curtain. A dividing line between the West, and China's newest acquisition: Putin's Russia. Let's hope that due to GOP cowardice that line is the Dnipr; not the Polish border.
I feel like I was ahead of the curve on "why do people keep saying Trump will be tough on China" so I will go ahead and take my victory lap.
How did I know? Because Trump did nothing about Hong Kong.
Consistently Trump's interest in China has been in unwinding globalism (going all the way back to mercantilism actually), not about promoting human rights, free speech, or territorial integrity in either region.
The fact that children are threatening to kill themselves if TikTok is banned is precisely why I'm ambivalent about this bill.
ALL these damn apps should be banned for minors. And for apps used by adults, there should be a ban on personal data collection and some kind of algorithmic transparency mandate that allows us to see if the owners are promoting a specific editorial line (on China, Israel, whatever).
I think all those restrictions would survive a First Amendment challenge. But a targeted forced divestment of TikTok alone might not, and I'm not convinced it should.
Eh, from the perspective of people outside the USA this is "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Trump is correct that Facebook and other Californian social networks constantly manipulate people at a horrific scale and do so almost exclusively to illegitimately harm the right and bolster left-wing establishment power. How many of us were faced with deluges of extremists yelling at us over totally false COVID or Russia-related claims in the last few years, driven by Facebook, YouTube and Twitter amplifying the left's agenda?
It's all swings and roundabouts when you're the government doing the manipulation. Now the establishment is getting a taste of its own medicine, and doesn't like it! Awww diddums.
> a change of ownership might as well be the same as a ban .... This is absolutely false
It's true for the people who currently run it. They will be banned and go en masse from senior executives of a wildly popular and successful company - an opportunity they will likely never get again in their lives - to nothing, nobody, unemployed. And good luck getting another job outside of China when you were literally just fired by Congress for being some sort of "traitor". Easy to see why they are desperate.
Here's the thing. TikTok hasn't done anything that US firms haven't also done, but more aggressively. Establishing this precedent is dangerous. The EU can't build its own competitors to Facebook and YouTube domestically, but it looooooooves aggressive regulation. What happens if the EU decides to force a sale of US firms to local European partners (friends of the Commission), on the grounds that US social networks manipulate European political opinion (i.e. allow criticism of the EU)? Do you think Congress will just sit back and tolerate that?
As an avid TikTok using adult who has pretty good conversations on the app and much better than the interactions I’ve had on other social platforms I really think the TikTok sale is going to be pretty bad. Everytime one of these sales happen it has been terrible for its users and the communities they’ve constructed. It’s just so much better as a product than its competitors especially at not having politics being a hydra eating all conversations and not being tied to a real identity and I’m really not convinced that won’t get killed in a transfer.
I genuinely don’t get why there’s no public evidence or any kind of process here. Like if it is as you say I’d probably bite the bullet knowing I would lose a lot of my contacts but it’s all on a trust us we know for sure what’s best for you kind of racket.
" As long as this conflict continues, every international issue will tend to be polarized into a pro-China/pro-Russia camp and a pro-liberal-democracy camp."
The obvious counterexamples are India and Israel. Modi backs Russia and is probably the most popular leader in the anti-democratic camp, but has strong traditional and geopolitical reasons for opposing China. Netanyahu is a war criminal and aspiring dictator, and even the moderate members of his government want to maintain rule over all of Israel/Palestine, while denying Palestinians the vote.
As long as the US is allied to these states, most people non-aligned countries will maintain the view they had in Cold War I, that this is just great power politics, and that the US is happy to back dictatorships as long as they are useful
Jimmy Carter got this right, towards the end of the Cold War, but he got no thanks for it.
These natsec conservatives that are surprised to see MAGA align with the CCP really shouldn't be. There has been a slow slide of defection in this direction for years. The North Star of the MAGA movement is to convince the public that the real enemies are domestic, not foreign, and the real war to fight is the culture war. I first noticed this in the context of MAGA and the CCP when the MAGA right was hypercritical of Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan in 2022. Trump baselessly accused Nancy Pelosi of somehow personally profiting from the trip via "insider trading" and Tucker led with a segment on "World War Nancy." Marjorie Taylor Greene said "Americans have had enough with a women obsessed with her own power she’s held for decades while our ENTIRE COUNTRY CRUMBLES."
Well after this Taiwan trip, the MAGA slide continued. Six months later, Tucker got retweeted by a CCP spokesperson (华春莹), pulling out this revealing quote from a recent show: "Your enemy is not China ... Your enemy is the military industrial complex...". Later, when Trump was interviewed by Tucker, Trump spelled this out perfectly: "One of your fellow journalists said, who is the biggest problem, sir? Is it China? Could it be Russia? Could it be North Korea? No, I said the biggest problem is from within."
The natsec conservatives either weren't listening or chose to imagine a different reality.
Trump is totally untrustworthy. I believe he owes Putin oligarchs a lot of money and has to dance to Putin's tune. The word "traitor" comes to mind. Billionaires who think he will deliver for them will be disappointed.
What Noah is really saying here is that he believes that the US should really get its information from a few “trusted” - that is controlled sources. I mean most countries have to deal with their information being massaged by American technology firms, companies that have definitely controlled the narrative on Israel recently, for instance.
I spend too much time [giving the CCP my personal data] on TikTok, and I'd like to note that I did NOT receive the push notification to call my representative. I don't let the app have access to my location, so maybe that is it, but the conspiracist in me thinks TikTok only sent the notification to people they think are low information or already agree with them based on their algorithm data.
Hi Noah. Have you considered throwing a Happy Hour for subscribers in the Bay (Like Matt Yglesias does for Slow Boring)?
I’m a young SV researcher/SWE, and would love to get the chance to meet you. Your writings have been very impactful and I would love to buy you a drink/bunny food.
I understand why we are concerned that TikTok's data is shared with the CCP and also that the CCP can use the app for propaganda purposes. But Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and Mark Zuckerberg are private individuals with access to the same data and who use their social media apps for the same propaganda purposes. Forcing the sale is probably a good thing but the concentration of power given to social media owners is a real problem!
I think this article fails to deal with the paradox of TikTok - it really is a great place for freedom of expression as long as you're not talking about China. For example, queer content on TikTok is flourishing. That sounds a lot more like a company with an internal power struggle between people who want the app to be open to self-expression and other people who want to stay on the good side of the CCP. But obviously, the only thing both sides can agree on is that they want TikTok to succeed as a company, and it seems hard to imagine that a congressionally mandated sale would be good for business.
Incredible how Trump continues to get worse over time. Every time you think he’s reached the nadir, it gets worse.
This bill seems like a great opportunity for America to have a hard conversation with itself about the balance of individual rights in the form of freedom of speech and the collective good in the form of a strong democracy.
Another good call, Noah. Trump doing a 180' on China--or at least on a key instrument of CCP soft power--is pretty significant.
It's simply further confirmation that Trump is indeed a KGB (or FSB if you prefer) asset, doing what he thinks Moscow Centre wants. Which isn't hard for him to figure out, as Tik Tok is Chinese, the new BFF of Putin's Russia--for whom he bent over backwards for, from Helsinki onwards as '45. That there's maybe a little money in it for him--from Yass or others invested in Tik Tok--is just gravy.
The natsec GOP have already fully prostituted themselves to the Trump anti-NATO/pro-Putin agenda. For no other reason than to hold onto power. They may "style" themselves natsec hawks--especially those with military bases and factories in their districts--but the overarching purpose of their party is tax breaks for the very rich and corporations. They've no doubt rationalized that defending American National Security is indeed a noble cause; but that at the present time it's simply not worth losing their seats over.
If FOX News suddenly reversed their anti-Ukraine/pro-Russia output--or even just toned it down a bit--might signal that the natsec business and political establishment is something that Republicans on the Hill still stand behind. But RW media is now solidly MAGA.
Without American aid, Ukraine will not last for long. Which is exactly what Putin and therefore Trump wants. Wherever the armistice that will come draws the new Russian-Ukraine border, will be the new Bamboo Curtain. A dividing line between the West, and China's newest acquisition: Putin's Russia. Let's hope that due to GOP cowardice that line is the Dnipr; not the Polish border.
I feel like I was ahead of the curve on "why do people keep saying Trump will be tough on China" so I will go ahead and take my victory lap.
How did I know? Because Trump did nothing about Hong Kong.
Consistently Trump's interest in China has been in unwinding globalism (going all the way back to mercantilism actually), not about promoting human rights, free speech, or territorial integrity in either region.
The fact that children are threatening to kill themselves if TikTok is banned is precisely why I'm ambivalent about this bill.
ALL these damn apps should be banned for minors. And for apps used by adults, there should be a ban on personal data collection and some kind of algorithmic transparency mandate that allows us to see if the owners are promoting a specific editorial line (on China, Israel, whatever).
I think all those restrictions would survive a First Amendment challenge. But a targeted forced divestment of TikTok alone might not, and I'm not convinced it should.
Eh, from the perspective of people outside the USA this is "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Trump is correct that Facebook and other Californian social networks constantly manipulate people at a horrific scale and do so almost exclusively to illegitimately harm the right and bolster left-wing establishment power. How many of us were faced with deluges of extremists yelling at us over totally false COVID or Russia-related claims in the last few years, driven by Facebook, YouTube and Twitter amplifying the left's agenda?
It's all swings and roundabouts when you're the government doing the manipulation. Now the establishment is getting a taste of its own medicine, and doesn't like it! Awww diddums.
> a change of ownership might as well be the same as a ban .... This is absolutely false
It's true for the people who currently run it. They will be banned and go en masse from senior executives of a wildly popular and successful company - an opportunity they will likely never get again in their lives - to nothing, nobody, unemployed. And good luck getting another job outside of China when you were literally just fired by Congress for being some sort of "traitor". Easy to see why they are desperate.
Here's the thing. TikTok hasn't done anything that US firms haven't also done, but more aggressively. Establishing this precedent is dangerous. The EU can't build its own competitors to Facebook and YouTube domestically, but it looooooooves aggressive regulation. What happens if the EU decides to force a sale of US firms to local European partners (friends of the Commission), on the grounds that US social networks manipulate European political opinion (i.e. allow criticism of the EU)? Do you think Congress will just sit back and tolerate that?
As an avid TikTok using adult who has pretty good conversations on the app and much better than the interactions I’ve had on other social platforms I really think the TikTok sale is going to be pretty bad. Everytime one of these sales happen it has been terrible for its users and the communities they’ve constructed. It’s just so much better as a product than its competitors especially at not having politics being a hydra eating all conversations and not being tied to a real identity and I’m really not convinced that won’t get killed in a transfer.
I genuinely don’t get why there’s no public evidence or any kind of process here. Like if it is as you say I’d probably bite the bullet knowing I would lose a lot of my contacts but it’s all on a trust us we know for sure what’s best for you kind of racket.
" As long as this conflict continues, every international issue will tend to be polarized into a pro-China/pro-Russia camp and a pro-liberal-democracy camp."
The obvious counterexamples are India and Israel. Modi backs Russia and is probably the most popular leader in the anti-democratic camp, but has strong traditional and geopolitical reasons for opposing China. Netanyahu is a war criminal and aspiring dictator, and even the moderate members of his government want to maintain rule over all of Israel/Palestine, while denying Palestinians the vote.
As long as the US is allied to these states, most people non-aligned countries will maintain the view they had in Cold War I, that this is just great power politics, and that the US is happy to back dictatorships as long as they are useful
Jimmy Carter got this right, towards the end of the Cold War, but he got no thanks for it.
These natsec conservatives that are surprised to see MAGA align with the CCP really shouldn't be. There has been a slow slide of defection in this direction for years. The North Star of the MAGA movement is to convince the public that the real enemies are domestic, not foreign, and the real war to fight is the culture war. I first noticed this in the context of MAGA and the CCP when the MAGA right was hypercritical of Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan in 2022. Trump baselessly accused Nancy Pelosi of somehow personally profiting from the trip via "insider trading" and Tucker led with a segment on "World War Nancy." Marjorie Taylor Greene said "Americans have had enough with a women obsessed with her own power she’s held for decades while our ENTIRE COUNTRY CRUMBLES."
Well after this Taiwan trip, the MAGA slide continued. Six months later, Tucker got retweeted by a CCP spokesperson (华春莹), pulling out this revealing quote from a recent show: "Your enemy is not China ... Your enemy is the military industrial complex...". Later, when Trump was interviewed by Tucker, Trump spelled this out perfectly: "One of your fellow journalists said, who is the biggest problem, sir? Is it China? Could it be Russia? Could it be North Korea? No, I said the biggest problem is from within."
The natsec conservatives either weren't listening or chose to imagine a different reality.
Trump is totally untrustworthy. I believe he owes Putin oligarchs a lot of money and has to dance to Putin's tune. The word "traitor" comes to mind. Billionaires who think he will deliver for them will be disappointed.
Ugh. China was always the one issue that Trump was right about. FFS.
What Noah is really saying here is that he believes that the US should really get its information from a few “trusted” - that is controlled sources. I mean most countries have to deal with their information being massaged by American technology firms, companies that have definitely controlled the narrative on Israel recently, for instance.
I spend too much time [giving the CCP my personal data] on TikTok, and I'd like to note that I did NOT receive the push notification to call my representative. I don't let the app have access to my location, so maybe that is it, but the conspiracist in me thinks TikTok only sent the notification to people they think are low information or already agree with them based on their algorithm data.
Hi Noah. Have you considered throwing a Happy Hour for subscribers in the Bay (Like Matt Yglesias does for Slow Boring)?
I’m a young SV researcher/SWE, and would love to get the chance to meet you. Your writings have been very impactful and I would love to buy you a drink/bunny food.
I understand why we are concerned that TikTok's data is shared with the CCP and also that the CCP can use the app for propaganda purposes. But Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and Mark Zuckerberg are private individuals with access to the same data and who use their social media apps for the same propaganda purposes. Forcing the sale is probably a good thing but the concentration of power given to social media owners is a real problem!
I think this article fails to deal with the paradox of TikTok - it really is a great place for freedom of expression as long as you're not talking about China. For example, queer content on TikTok is flourishing. That sounds a lot more like a company with an internal power struggle between people who want the app to be open to self-expression and other people who want to stay on the good side of the CCP. But obviously, the only thing both sides can agree on is that they want TikTok to succeed as a company, and it seems hard to imagine that a congressionally mandated sale would be good for business.