From someone who retired from the military, this article is just one more example of how civilians just don’t understand the military.
I could of told you 20 years ago that the military would never back a facist movement. Same 10-years ago. And ditto for 10-years from now.
I am going to confess, that the whole thing sort of irritates me. That you have to write this article, that you once worried about this, is sort of frustrating. Anyway, I can assure you that a bunch of video playing generation X and millennials have no desire to get involved in politics.
The other thing that people get wrong about the military that I’ve seen on Twitter is the… military vs civilians with ARs thing. It usually comes up around 2nd Amendment issues. This is a pure hypothetical, because it would never happen. But….
The discussion usually goes like this.
- 2nd amendment is there to prevent tyranny.
- that’s dumb, the military has tanks and planes. Your ARs would do nothing
Can we just agree that Afghanistan (and every other insurgency) we have gotten involved in negates the 2nd point. A critical mass of civilians with semi-automatic weapons would not be crushed. It would be an endless stalemate. (Look at Northern Ireland and the IRA).
Once again…. It will never happen. I just hate the naivety of the argument.
Anyway, my worst case scenario I can picture. Is…
A repeal of the 2nd amendment would cause some number of states to secede. But it would take a total repeal. But, given that a constitutional change would require such a large percentage of states to agree, if we got to that point, I suspect that the political makeup of Americans would of changed. I’m assuming we will be stuck in this 55-45 flip flopping balance for decades.
A secession event is hard to gauge as far as military goes. Military people are stationed so randomly around the country. I’m guessing the whole thing would just be dough in the courts, and not on the streets. The military would just stay out of it.
The military has gone a little overboard in wokeness. Not in a they have become pansies way, but more in a all the extra training (and it’s not just wokeness, it’s opsec, and health, and computer, and safety training) that there in an inordinate amount of ancillary training in non-mission oriented BS that many units are loosing competence in core competencies.Navy ships and accidents is most visible example. But, it’s present in other branches as well.
I’m a war, things get straightened out, but there is always delays until they get their shit together.
“I am going to confess, that the whole thing sort of irritates me. That you have to write this article, that you once worried about this, is sort of frustrating.“
With respect, I think the people you have to blame for this are the military itself. They haven’t exactly conducted themselves in ways that convince liberals they are strong supporters of democracy. I don’t think Noah or any of us were crazy for thinking that if the Commander-in-Chief ordered them to do something, then they would do it. Especially for those of us who came of political age in the Bush II era and still remember those photos from Abu Ghraib, I think we can be forgiven for not being certain that the military would do the right thing when push comes to shove.
You’re right, I know little about the military. I’ll own that. But most of us know only what we see on the news. And the fact that so many of us worried about this seems more like a sign that the military should take public relations more seriously than a sign that we were dumb and unreasonable for thinking this.
(And, for what it’s worth, I also think 10 or 20 years ago, many people would have told you that the Republican Party would never have supported a fascist movement and, unfortunately for all of us, they were wrong.)
I have written and deleted several snarky comments to reply back to you.
But I am aware that many civilians are disconnected from the military and have this view and narrative which is shaped by the media and Hollywood.
It’s easy to see how people form stereotypes based on limited information.
The military is a very broad organization. It’s made up of many pieces. I don’t know what to say except to reassure you that your fears are unfounded.
Also Abu Grahib was a CIA prison. The justification was by civilian lawyers. Yes there were some military interrogators involved, but under the direction of the CIA. It’s sort of unfortunate that the incident that came associated with the military. Meanwhile, the CIA seems to have become a hip organization.
Great response. I walked out of Ft Jackson a free man damned near 50 years ago, having hated every minute I spent in the goddam army, but one thing I've learned over the years since from my many friends who made it a career is that today's military isn't the same one which went into VN enthusiastically. It's a whole lot smarter. Those friends of mine were more angered and more opposed to Trump than most of my civilian friends, who, as much they despise the man, didn't feel personally threatened by him. I'm not at all surprised by what's reported about Miley, and I don't for a minute fear a military coup (though I felt differently when we went to DEFCON 2 (as we were told then) during the 73 Israeli Arab war). It won't be a coup which ends what little democracy we have; it'll be a stolen election, perhaps as late as 2028 or even 2032.
remarkable because some of the common predictors for a politically involved military are present in the United States: a narrowing of the recruitment base of the officer corps and several recent conflicts that didn't result in undeniable victory.
I'm bothered by the way fascist seems to be a loose term for "right-wingers I really don't like". It's used liberally and to generate fear by associating whomever (Trump in this case) with failed, evil authoritarian sociopaths like Hitler and Mussolini.
Set me straight if I'm misunderstanding, but here are the main tenets of fascism (according to wikipedia):
Ultranationalism, Totalitarianism, the Economy (Fascism presented itself as an alternative to both international socialism and free market capitalism), Action (Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics), Age and gender roles (Fascism emphasizes youth both in a physical sense of age and in a spiritual sense as related to virility and commitment to action).
Some of these things you can stretch and say Trump edged towards. But others you really can't, or you can find ways to stretch and say the far-Left of US politics fits them better.
Now if coup concerns are valid, by all means please keep writing about them. But coups aren't something only fascist parties can do. And my understanding is Trump is not a fascist, he's a right-wing politician with some authoritarian instincts and most on the left despise him, but he's not a fascist in any meaningful sense of the word. So out of respect for language, and to avoid crying wolf in case a real fascist actually comes along in US politics, I wish writers would use more accurate and less hyperbolic terms to describe most of the US right.
F=AR is the current definition, but if you look at Mussolini's Fascist™ program in Italy, you'd see an economic program surprisingly similar to Stalin's. The Fascist™ government set prices, wages, standards and tightly controlled the entire economy. The difference, according to Fortune Magazine at the time, was that Mussolini wanted to completely control the private plumbing business while Stalin wanted all the plumbers to work for the State. It's still one of the great questions, contractor or employee?
I have always found Kalecki's description of what is really fascism in his most famous essay to be how I judge fascism. I believe it was Brad DeLong who wrote that we are fortunate that Trump was an incompetent (neo)fascist. The retired military I know (a small sample, but includes sub-captains, and high-ranking (Col. and above) officers from the Navy and Air-Force) while clearly right-wing in their general views, are all highly educated, and despised how stupid and irrational Trump is. These are people who have participated in, and have respect for, the high levels of education (master's and PhD's) that dominate the top levels of our officer corps. The officer ranks of the military today are among the most meritocratic of "industries" in the US. The US military is not going to follow someone they know is an idiot.
The right may own far more guns (although like many liberals who hunt I have a collection of bolt-action hunting rifles which are far more powerful and accurate than the AR style rifles favored by most on the right) but guns are low-tech for people with PhD's and subsequent careers in research Physics and Chemistry and Computer Science and Molecular Biology ... It wouldn't be a fair fight.
I used to know more people in the military, and most of them were quite liberal. The US military, and particularly the Army, has seen itself as a melting pot since World War II. The Air Force, the Navy and Marines, maybe not so much. The Army has to take all flavors of civilians and turn them into an effective fighting force, and that means getting certain things out of the way. In this sense, the military has long been woke.
In the 19th century, it was full of immigrants, not all of them too happy at having to fight on the same side as various other immigrants, and they and the native born Americans serving had their own differences to deal with as well. Truman integrating the armed forces racially was a big step possibly driven by a felt need to repudiate the racial theories of the Nazis. My girlfriend is reading Facing the Mountain about Japanese-American soldiers who fought in World War II, and the challenge of getting the J-As from Hawaii to work with the J-As from the mainland.
Most of the older military types I know have retired, but the handful of young people I know who have signed up seem pretty liberal too.
What I took from some of the comments from the Generals was not that they rose to the occasion, but they seemed concerned they not be in a position to do so in the future.
I’ve got to admit, I wonder how much of this actually happened and how much is Milley exaggerating in order to launder his own reputation rather than get stuck being associated with Trump for the rest of his life. Maybe that’s paranoid of me.
From someone who retired from the military, this article is just one more example of how civilians just don’t understand the military.
I could of told you 20 years ago that the military would never back a facist movement. Same 10-years ago. And ditto for 10-years from now.
I am going to confess, that the whole thing sort of irritates me. That you have to write this article, that you once worried about this, is sort of frustrating. Anyway, I can assure you that a bunch of video playing generation X and millennials have no desire to get involved in politics.
The other thing that people get wrong about the military that I’ve seen on Twitter is the… military vs civilians with ARs thing. It usually comes up around 2nd Amendment issues. This is a pure hypothetical, because it would never happen. But….
The discussion usually goes like this.
- 2nd amendment is there to prevent tyranny.
- that’s dumb, the military has tanks and planes. Your ARs would do nothing
Can we just agree that Afghanistan (and every other insurgency) we have gotten involved in negates the 2nd point. A critical mass of civilians with semi-automatic weapons would not be crushed. It would be an endless stalemate. (Look at Northern Ireland and the IRA).
Once again…. It will never happen. I just hate the naivety of the argument.
Anyway, my worst case scenario I can picture. Is…
A repeal of the 2nd amendment would cause some number of states to secede. But it would take a total repeal. But, given that a constitutional change would require such a large percentage of states to agree, if we got to that point, I suspect that the political makeup of Americans would of changed. I’m assuming we will be stuck in this 55-45 flip flopping balance for decades.
A secession event is hard to gauge as far as military goes. Military people are stationed so randomly around the country. I’m guessing the whole thing would just be dough in the courts, and not on the streets. The military would just stay out of it.
The military has gone a little overboard in wokeness. Not in a they have become pansies way, but more in a all the extra training (and it’s not just wokeness, it’s opsec, and health, and computer, and safety training) that there in an inordinate amount of ancillary training in non-mission oriented BS that many units are loosing competence in core competencies.Navy ships and accidents is most visible example. But, it’s present in other branches as well.
I’m a war, things get straightened out, but there is always delays until they get their shit together.
Anyway. Just landed in San Paulo.
Would you write a guest post about this?
Which part? And sure.
Military attitudes and overtraining for non-core stuff.
“I am going to confess, that the whole thing sort of irritates me. That you have to write this article, that you once worried about this, is sort of frustrating.“
With respect, I think the people you have to blame for this are the military itself. They haven’t exactly conducted themselves in ways that convince liberals they are strong supporters of democracy. I don’t think Noah or any of us were crazy for thinking that if the Commander-in-Chief ordered them to do something, then they would do it. Especially for those of us who came of political age in the Bush II era and still remember those photos from Abu Ghraib, I think we can be forgiven for not being certain that the military would do the right thing when push comes to shove.
You’re right, I know little about the military. I’ll own that. But most of us know only what we see on the news. And the fact that so many of us worried about this seems more like a sign that the military should take public relations more seriously than a sign that we were dumb and unreasonable for thinking this.
(And, for what it’s worth, I also think 10 or 20 years ago, many people would have told you that the Republican Party would never have supported a fascist movement and, unfortunately for all of us, they were wrong.)
I have written and deleted several snarky comments to reply back to you.
But I am aware that many civilians are disconnected from the military and have this view and narrative which is shaped by the media and Hollywood.
It’s easy to see how people form stereotypes based on limited information.
The military is a very broad organization. It’s made up of many pieces. I don’t know what to say except to reassure you that your fears are unfounded.
Also Abu Grahib was a CIA prison. The justification was by civilian lawyers. Yes there were some military interrogators involved, but under the direction of the CIA. It’s sort of unfortunate that the incident that came associated with the military. Meanwhile, the CIA seems to have become a hip organization.
Great response. I walked out of Ft Jackson a free man damned near 50 years ago, having hated every minute I spent in the goddam army, but one thing I've learned over the years since from my many friends who made it a career is that today's military isn't the same one which went into VN enthusiastically. It's a whole lot smarter. Those friends of mine were more angered and more opposed to Trump than most of my civilian friends, who, as much they despise the man, didn't feel personally threatened by him. I'm not at all surprised by what's reported about Miley, and I don't for a minute fear a military coup (though I felt differently when we went to DEFCON 2 (as we were told then) during the 73 Israeli Arab war). It won't be a coup which ends what little democracy we have; it'll be a stolen election, perhaps as late as 2028 or even 2032.
Or as soon as 2024. Republicans are already laying the groundwork.
Another fantastic article!
Thanks!!
Anyone who watched the last two seasons of the show Homeland now knows how prescient it truly was😬
I should watch more TV
My New Year's resolution was to start smoking and watch more TV but it's been tough, I've only been able to get up to about half a pack a day.
remarkable because some of the common predictors for a politically involved military are present in the United States: a narrowing of the recruitment base of the officer corps and several recent conflicts that didn't result in undeniable victory.
Please explain the narrowing of recruitment base? I don’t see that.
I was mistaken the data I was thinking about is actually on enlisted recruitment
https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/generations-of-war
Fascists - what is a fascist?
I'm bothered by the way fascist seems to be a loose term for "right-wingers I really don't like". It's used liberally and to generate fear by associating whomever (Trump in this case) with failed, evil authoritarian sociopaths like Hitler and Mussolini.
Set me straight if I'm misunderstanding, but here are the main tenets of fascism (according to wikipedia):
Ultranationalism, Totalitarianism, the Economy (Fascism presented itself as an alternative to both international socialism and free market capitalism), Action (Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics), Age and gender roles (Fascism emphasizes youth both in a physical sense of age and in a spiritual sense as related to virility and commitment to action).
Some of these things you can stretch and say Trump edged towards. But others you really can't, or you can find ways to stretch and say the far-Left of US politics fits them better.
Now if coup concerns are valid, by all means please keep writing about them. But coups aren't something only fascist parties can do. And my understanding is Trump is not a fascist, he's a right-wing politician with some authoritarian instincts and most on the left despise him, but he's not a fascist in any meaningful sense of the word. So out of respect for language, and to avoid crying wolf in case a real fascist actually comes along in US politics, I wish writers would use more accurate and less hyperbolic terms to describe most of the US right.
Fascist = authoritarian rightist
F=AR is the current definition, but if you look at Mussolini's Fascist™ program in Italy, you'd see an economic program surprisingly similar to Stalin's. The Fascist™ government set prices, wages, standards and tightly controlled the entire economy. The difference, according to Fortune Magazine at the time, was that Mussolini wanted to completely control the private plumbing business while Stalin wanted all the plumbers to work for the State. It's still one of the great questions, contractor or employee?
I have always found Kalecki's description of what is really fascism in his most famous essay to be how I judge fascism. I believe it was Brad DeLong who wrote that we are fortunate that Trump was an incompetent (neo)fascist. The retired military I know (a small sample, but includes sub-captains, and high-ranking (Col. and above) officers from the Navy and Air-Force) while clearly right-wing in their general views, are all highly educated, and despised how stupid and irrational Trump is. These are people who have participated in, and have respect for, the high levels of education (master's and PhD's) that dominate the top levels of our officer corps. The officer ranks of the military today are among the most meritocratic of "industries" in the US. The US military is not going to follow someone they know is an idiot.
The right may own far more guns (although like many liberals who hunt I have a collection of bolt-action hunting rifles which are far more powerful and accurate than the AR style rifles favored by most on the right) but guns are low-tech for people with PhD's and subsequent careers in research Physics and Chemistry and Computer Science and Molecular Biology ... It wouldn't be a fair fight.
I used to know more people in the military, and most of them were quite liberal. The US military, and particularly the Army, has seen itself as a melting pot since World War II. The Air Force, the Navy and Marines, maybe not so much. The Army has to take all flavors of civilians and turn them into an effective fighting force, and that means getting certain things out of the way. In this sense, the military has long been woke.
In the 19th century, it was full of immigrants, not all of them too happy at having to fight on the same side as various other immigrants, and they and the native born Americans serving had their own differences to deal with as well. Truman integrating the armed forces racially was a big step possibly driven by a felt need to repudiate the racial theories of the Nazis. My girlfriend is reading Facing the Mountain about Japanese-American soldiers who fought in World War II, and the challenge of getting the J-As from Hawaii to work with the J-As from the mainland.
Most of the older military types I know have retired, but the handful of young people I know who have signed up seem pretty liberal too.
What I took from some of the comments from the Generals was not that they rose to the occasion, but they seemed concerned they not be in a position to do so in the future.
I would also welcome what Rory would say
I’ve got to admit, I wonder how much of this actually happened and how much is Milley exaggerating in order to launder his own reputation rather than get stuck being associated with Trump for the rest of his life. Maybe that’s paranoid of me.