For some reason I could never get into the Culture books! I've read the first three, but none of them ever really grabbed me. I think I do consistently fail to appreciate British space opera...I also couldn't get into Revelation Space.
pacing was not my own issue (I love Dhalgren and pretty much everything by Stephenson), just lack of novelty and a focus on relentlessly murdery characters and action sequences
OMG - Use of Weapons blew my mind when I read it the first time, and everytime since. I've even listened to it as an audiobook, but skipping every other chapter and then going back and listening to all the skipped chapter to maintain the respective storylines. Just so damned good.
I didn’t care for Consider Phlebas, but heard player of games got better, like how the later Pratchett books are better than early Discworld. This comment doesn’t give me confidence! BTW, no honorable mention for Terry Pratchett?
I love this list, thank you! I agree with many and will check out those I have yet to read.
I’m a bit concerned, however, about your not liking Banks or Reynolds, who have recently become faves of mine, not to mention the diss of Dhalgren. Dhalgren, The Dispossessed, and VALIS are my Mount Rushmore, although I admit that Dhalgren and VALIS are for those who prefer experimentation.
What are your thoughts on Frank Herbert or Vonnegut?
It’s incredible how much excellent science fiction is out there! Just when you think you’ve tapped all the good stuff you find a treasure trove of recommendations like this. I’ve been surging SF audiobooks for the past five years or so, including revisiting classics I loved 30 years ago like the Dune series and Lord Light, and I’m beginning to think it might be inexhaustible. Thanks again for sharing!
Curious how the audio experience is for fiction? I have this strange resistance that I don't seem to get over. Feel like I would be giving something up in terms of reading and comprehension. So, always curious about how people feel about it!
I'm thinking of trying to make it through Children of Dune, I noped out after Messiah the other times I've tried. I have no idea how they're going to film that, it's so in everyone's head and there's all kinds of time-wimey and destiny stuff in that book.
The ending of Children of Dune is amazing. Dune Massiah was just a bridge novel, and it was fine but no Dune. Herbert intended to make two trilogies with God Emperor as a connecting story between them. It's a shame he died before writing the seventh book. You should definitely finish the first trilogy with Children, the hair on my arms stands up just thinking about that book's finale
Revelation Space suffers from some “first novel” issues, but the universe/series overall is very worth it imo. I say this as someone who slogged through RS, wrote it off, then somehow got convinced to read the rest of the books and got hooked. Try “Aurora Rising” to see a much more mature Reynolds writing great stuff in the same universe.
as someone who adores most of your list, I bounced off the first 2 as well then tried a couple that friends had told me were the best ones, and STILL didn't get anything out of them so I gave up
Yes! I’ve read more the majority of books on this list (mostly in paperback), but after more than ten moves in a couple of countries most have been binned/recycled. I’ve kept my culture collection on my bookshelf throughout. Stephenson and Gibson, too.
Bujold's "other series" is also refreshing for its optimism. It is kind of her retirement project and new novellas (and the occasional full length novel) come out every year or so
They're also one of the rare instances of religion being handled in a sympathetic way in speculative fiction. I'm an atheist but it gets tiresome seeing every single religion being somewhere between idiots and pure, mustachioed twirling evil.
Thank you for saying that you're bored with religion bashing. For all those who think we need to hear how ridiculous and horrible religion is, please realize we heard you— yesterday, the day before, the day before that . . . . It's been almost 97,000 days since Voltaire's Candid was published.
Well, sure, but people keep being born every day so education is an endless cycle. 2+2 =4 has been known since the Antiquity and indeed since prehistory - we still tell kids.
Furthermore, religion and religious people keep being ridiculous and horrible in 2023. I honestly don't seek to antagonize anyone and I wasn't even a full fledged New Atheist but you got to admit that calling people on the shit they're doing right now is potentially useful and saying "you called me on that yesterday and the day before" is hardly an adequate rebuttal.
I realized what I really don't enjoy about religion bashers: they tend to stereotype all religions as equally toxic. It's as bad as racism— all black people are a certain way. My experience is that I only tend to encounter religion bashers as very indiscriminate in their condemnation. The folks who understand that religions are different probably don't speak out as forcefully. Of course, I realize that many who embrace a religion are equally as stereotyping and intolerant.
Have you ever thought that a yearly atheist/anti-organized religion week/fortnight might be established when the horrors of religion and the nonexistence of God are proclaimed in a focused manner? You may be lessening your impact by being a constant minor irritation.
Christianity has only two big seasons of the year when its message becomes prominent. Judaism has three. Islam has one lunar month.
OTOH, if anyone is convicted of a crime it should be revealed and spoken of to the maximum extent. They always seem to point it out when the perp is religiously active. Maybe we should equal that out by publicizing non-religious perps as well. It seems to me that someone's getting a free ride in that department.
Yeah, we'll worry about that just as soon as the "religious" no longer have positions of power from which to force their doctrine into laws that affect the rest of us.
It remains a daily battle, because the Christo-Fascists in this country never rest and have an infinite reserve of creativity when it comes to their exercise of whittling away other people's rights and bodily autonomy... particularly when it seems quite clear that this slow erosion of rights is just the beginning of a campaign to marginalize and dehumanize people that they actually don't want to *exist* in society, at all.
“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.” -Thomas Jefferson.
So, wouldn't it be nice to just focus on Christo-Fascists and discuss other religions in less toxic terms? Religion is many different things, and non-religion is just one.
We just happen to live in the US which is overrun with Christo-fascists as opposed to Iran or Afghanistan who are dominated and ruled by Islamofascists. I will duly object if required to follow rules set forth by the Koran and predominant Muslim sect by my government. At least until I am stoned to death.
Do you think religion being normalized and put on a pedestal in other aspects of our lives should preclude art from addressing the fact that religion is basically a human construct, filled with our weak human cognitive biases, and maybe we should be resistant to the idea and efforts to put one faith's doctrine in a place of influence over EVERYONE ELSE in society as codified into laws?
Also, I find that people who base their religious faith in an individualized personal relationship with their creator and how that inspires them to be a better person aren't as offended by honest critiques of religion, as are the people who are basically performative/cultural Christians who think the organized, culture war aspect of their religion is the important part of the exercise. (So much for the Christ parts of the bible)
The more genuine person isn't offended by critics pointing out rampant religious hypocrisy, because they aren't the ones out there actively engaged in that hypocrisy and giving religion a bad name in the first place.
Maybe if some negative critique of religion strikes a nerve and makes someone offended, that's because there's an element of truth to it. If you weren't mentioned, then you wouldn't feel attacked. Is that supposed to be someone else's problem that YOU might see yourself described in what is often a broad, undirected critique of some doctrine or agenda of an organized religion for society.
"Don't talk about religion" While religion is actively taking a role in rolling back other people's rights to privacy and bodily autonomy is sure convenient for the people doing the rolling back.
If your religion is a mostly private endeavor you apply only to your OWN life and behavior, then that's GREAT. That's what religion is supposed to be in a modern, civilized, democratic context.
It's the people who aren't content for their personal religion to guide JUST their own lives that are making a problem for the rest of us.
Having these discussions openly and in art might actually keep people from falling into a Christo-Fascist mindset. Letting people remain in a like minded bubble that just keeps pushing the envelope of what they should believe and do on account of that faith is ceding the very earliest point in which most people could be subtly dissuaded from that kind of thinking by having the issues presented in other contexts they might more easily relate to.
"So, wouldn't it be nice to just focus on Christo-Fascists and discuss other religions in less toxic terms?"
If anyone is describing religion in "toxic" terms, one should really only be offended if they are engaged in the toxic things that are being described. Meanwhile, I don't see nearly enough people of faith out there trying to dissuade their fellow adherents from being patently "not nice" and "toxic" and ultimately fascist towards groups of people they seek to dehumanize and legislate out of existence.
So, once again this seems like a religious bias towards trying to tell other people what they should and should not be doing because of how it might make religious people feel, while taking very little interest in holding their own to any kind of standard of human decency and granting respect for the feelings and freedoms of others.
I wonder what would happen if anti-religionists attained power. Would they be more in favor of human freedom and diversity? I remember the persecution of religionists in Marxist countries.
You’re acting as if we didn’t have the more clearly secular government and court rulings we had from the 1940s to the mid 1980s. No one was oppressed. You just couldn’t force school kids and employees to engage in public prayer against their personal beliefs… oh the humanity! We extended the rights of women and gay people not to be openly harassed or discriminated against… clutch your pearls!
It was the unholy alliance of racists and evangelicals via the “southern strategy” that gave the outwardly religious a foothold to assert their religious doctrine into law. Prior to that, it was largely understood that the separation of church and state was a fundamental principle in our founding, and that meant it is unacceptable to put doctrine into law that intrudes on other people’s right to practice their own faith or lack of faith.
Seriously, though, there is a habit of casual religion bashing that haunts science fiction; but the best takes it seriously and gives us characters like Firefly's Shepherd Book; if you've never read Ursula K. LeGuin's Always Coming Home, it's a difficult read that depicts a society and it's beliefs in a deeply serious fashion.
And, of course, authors who are gonna take a shot at religion should at the very least put some effort into it. I thought the Hunger Games did good job examining the ways faith fails without using the word "god" once.
Agreed on that. I liked the way religion was handled in Hyperion, at least the first two books. Space Catholics have fallen far from power and have been cast aside by humanity in favor of zen Buddhist philosophies that encourage decadent behavior.
I remember reading that series at night with a flashlight when I should have been sleeping. It was so amazing I can't imagine it being any better than mildly disappointing as an adult, but adults vary a lot in their ability to appreciate the art of children's literature.
"I've long believed that instead of seeing humans as having fallen from a past state of greatness or grace, we should venerate our ancestors' long, hard climb up out of the muck of animal existence."
YES! YES!
Fuck the lie of Eden. Darwinian randomness and natural selection somehow gifted Homo sapiens with unique (at least on this planet) abilities to fight back against this abusive universe, and we should be proud of how much ground we've won. And if our record is very much a mixed bag, what abuse survivor can't say the same?
I know this is really a sci-fi list, but your fantasy suggestions lean a bit classic for my taste - there's tons of great modern fantasy out there to try. A few suggestions: The Lies of Locke Lamora, by Scott Lynch, about a master con man robbing the rich in a fantastical version of Venice; the operatic Broken Earth Series, by N.K. Jemesin, which manages to tackle massive issues like racism, environmental degradation, slavery, and sexuality within a great (and lean) story; and of course the Stormlight Archive, by Brandon Sanderson, which many people consider to be the pinnacle of the modern genre.
I myself tried Lies of Locke Lamora, it was alright but maybe too YA for my taste. I also felt like I was being “sequel baited” when the main characters made certain choices, seemingly just to create loose threads to pick up later. It was the same complaint I had about Way of Kings. It’s why a book like A Deepness in the Sky is so fantastic. It doesnt need a sequel at all.
Interesting. I often recommend Lock Lamora because even though it's the first in a series, it stands on its own as a self-contained story. Though I completely agree about the Way of Kings (the first book in the Stormlight Archive). It's unabashedly part of a really long series and you have to be in for that. I definitely am - but I can see how you might not be.
Re: Deepness in the Sky - do I need to read A Fire Upon the Deep first?
Loved some of the imagery in Lamora, the glass and so on I can recall. Just not for me. But for Deepness, it is definitely standalone although same universe as Fire and some overlapping characters. It is a book I’ve recommended to people and had them never take a recommendation from me again, so keep that in mind. Not a light read but if you like economics and politics, as well as stories about aliens, you should dig it.
Andy Wier is right near the top of the list you posted. I've read The Martian and Artemis and loved both—although the Martian is one of the few works where I recommend either the book or the film without reservation. One of the best hero versus wilderness tales I've ever read in a single sitting
This is an amazing because so many of these books are already on my all-time favorite list. If I had to pick one super-favorite from this list, it would be Anathem.
Damn - what a fantastic list this is, truly. Thank you. I'm halfway through the Vorkosigan books at the moment and they are all that you say. A note on that: if anyone has an Audible+ subscription (the monthly one, where you get one credit per month), you'll also have access to the Plus catalogue - and most of the Vorkosigan books are in it to download and listen to for free.
Also, if you haven't tried it yet, I think you might like the Baru Cormorant books by Seth Dickinson for the real-feeling convoluted worldbuilding - it starts with "The Traitor Baru Cormorant". Similarly, have you had a go at Arkady Martine's "A Memory Called Empire" (2020)?
I am bogging down a bit on book three of Dickinson. Not sure I’ll finish. First two were very good (both characters and setting). Thumbs up on Martine.
PS Contrary to our esteemed host I think the best books are the kind of trilogy that starts at Memory goes through Komarr and ends at A Civil Campaign. In addition to being great reads and full of quotable lines I find them very much reminiscent of Dorothy L Sayer's Peter Wimsey detective novels. (Which you should also read even though there are absolutely not SF)
Wow, this is awesome! Thank you, Noah! I consider myself well read in Sci-Fi and Fantasy, but most of these are new to me. I’m super excited to make my way through your list!
A couple of my own recommendations:
* N. K. Jemison’s Broken Earth trilogy (Sci-Fi parable on racial essentialism and mother-daughter relationships)
* Every book in Joe Abercrombie’s First Law world (dark as hell fantasy and a world of magic trends into industrialization)
You've got to read the third Broken Earth book - it ties up the first two books together in a most satisfying way. N. K. Jemison really blew the roof off with this series
Zone of Thought is truly outstanding. One thing that always struck me were the "far out" aliens who kept offering very weird opinions and sort of insisting that since they were so far away from the action, they had a better take on what was really happening than the people near it. I might be misremembering those details, I need to re-read it. I have not re-read the books in a long while but whenever I do, I get a real chuckle.
If folks like Zone of Thought and particularly Deepness, the book Children of Time is fantastic. In some ways it’s a better story than Deepness, though similar. I love a good first contact story.
A comment about the Prydain books - I too read Lloyd Alexander growing up and as a parent (of kids who are now teens) discovered they had fallen out of the rotation, so to speak. Perhaps the Potterverse or Hunger Games or Percy Jackson crowded them out? YA has been a verdant genre for a while now.
So many comments swirling around in my mind as I read that list which was incredible by the way. Let's leave it at two:
* You can't just mention "Parable of the Sower" (Octavia Butler) without also including "Parable of the Talents".
* I recently reread "Lord of LIght" (Roger Zelazny). Having reread a few other science fiction works that blew my mind in the 70s, but disappointed me, I can safely say that this was not one of them. It holds up very well to me.
Noah, you just guaranteed I will be a long term subscriber. You mentioned the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander, an utterly brilliant 5 book series. I go back and read it every few years, which I have been doing for 50+ years. Thank you, and Merry Christmas.:))
Merry Christmas! Thanks for giving us the gift of this list! I remember well reading Prydain as a kid – at the same as the Old Kingdom books by Garth Nix, which I’d recommend just as strongly if you haven’t read them! The initial trilogy (Sabriel, Lirael, Abhorsen) is some of my favorite fantasy ever written.
I too read the Prydain books growing up and assumed they were more commonly read. For better or worse, Gwystyl is a character I have identified with ever since.
I went on a road trip to New York from Kansas in college, and I read out loud the first two books of Prydain. It was great fun and the car mates evidently enjoyed it, but 20 hours of doing a Gurgi voice is murder on your vocal chords!
Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023Liked by Noah Smith
Thanks, Noah. This is a great list, including many I, myself, would recommend :)
I would highly recommend you finish the third book, "Death's End", in the "Remembrance of Earth's Past" series; it is well worth the 600 page effort.
I have another series for your SF list, by an author you've already included:
Stephen R. Donaldson's, "The Gap Cycle" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_Cycle] — starts off a bit dark, but is a very well written story that keep's you engaged, as it unfolds.
Also, I have a very strong series recommendation for your Fantasy list:
"Malazan Book of the Fallen", by Steven Erikson [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malazan_Book_of_the_Fallen] — This is a massive story of epic proportions, spanning thousands of years, across multiple contents and 'peoples', that is so original and well written, you will not be able to put the 10 books down. I promise. _Highly_ recommended!
Based on the sci-fi recommendations I was honestly surprised Malazan wasn’t listed. Haven’t read it myself, but it’s always on “challenge yourself” speculative fiction lists
what? none of ian m banks "culture" novels? the archetypal description of post-scarcity future, replete with super-human ai?
For some reason I could never get into the Culture books! I've read the first three, but none of them ever really grabbed me. I think I do consistently fail to appreciate British space opera...I also couldn't get into Revelation Space.
I love Banks (try Use of Weapons), but I agree that he requires a tolerance for slow pacing and setting/concept over plot.
pacing was not my own issue (I love Dhalgren and pretty much everything by Stephenson), just lack of novelty and a focus on relentlessly murdery characters and action sequences
OMG - Use of Weapons blew my mind when I read it the first time, and everytime since. I've even listened to it as an audiobook, but skipping every other chapter and then going back and listening to all the skipped chapter to maintain the respective storylines. Just so damned good.
I didn’t care for Consider Phlebas, but heard player of games got better, like how the later Pratchett books are better than early Discworld. This comment doesn’t give me confidence! BTW, no honorable mention for Terry Pratchett?
The two books I love to reread are Thud and my personal favourite The Night Watch
I love this list, thank you! I agree with many and will check out those I have yet to read.
I’m a bit concerned, however, about your not liking Banks or Reynolds, who have recently become faves of mine, not to mention the diss of Dhalgren. Dhalgren, The Dispossessed, and VALIS are my Mount Rushmore, although I admit that Dhalgren and VALIS are for those who prefer experimentation.
What are your thoughts on Frank Herbert or Vonnegut?
Oh yeah Dhalgren is great. I just had so much Delany on the list!
I love Vonnegut, and I think Herbert is hit or miss but love the first Dune book!
It’s incredible how much excellent science fiction is out there! Just when you think you’ve tapped all the good stuff you find a treasure trove of recommendations like this. I’ve been surging SF audiobooks for the past five years or so, including revisiting classics I loved 30 years ago like the Dune series and Lord Light, and I’m beginning to think it might be inexhaustible. Thanks again for sharing!
Curious how the audio experience is for fiction? I have this strange resistance that I don't seem to get over. Feel like I would be giving something up in terms of reading and comprehension. So, always curious about how people feel about it!
Hope you caught this excellent New Yorker profile on Delany: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/07/10/samuel-r-delany-profile
I'm thinking of trying to make it through Children of Dune, I noped out after Messiah the other times I've tried. I have no idea how they're going to film that, it's so in everyone's head and there's all kinds of time-wimey and destiny stuff in that book.
The ending of Children of Dune is amazing. Dune Massiah was just a bridge novel, and it was fine but no Dune. Herbert intended to make two trilogies with God Emperor as a connecting story between them. It's a shame he died before writing the seventh book. You should definitely finish the first trilogy with Children, the hair on my arms stands up just thinking about that book's finale
Revelation Space suffers from some “first novel” issues, but the universe/series overall is very worth it imo. I say this as someone who slogged through RS, wrote it off, then somehow got convinced to read the rest of the books and got hooked. Try “Aurora Rising” to see a much more mature Reynolds writing great stuff in the same universe.
as someone who adores most of your list, I bounced off the first 2 as well then tried a couple that friends had told me were the best ones, and STILL didn't get anything out of them so I gave up
I read Consider Phlebas and it started off well and went downhill, I've heard the others were better but haven't ventured further.
Consider Phlebas is kind of an outlier in the Culture series.
It had much more of a space fantasy/adventure feeling than most of the others, and the AI had a more peripheral role.
Yes! I’ve read more the majority of books on this list (mostly in paperback), but after more than ten moves in a couple of countries most have been binned/recycled. I’ve kept my culture collection on my bookshelf throughout. Stephenson and Gibson, too.
Such a weird omission.
Bujold's "other series" is also refreshing for its optimism. It is kind of her retirement project and new novellas (and the occasional full length novel) come out every year or so
They're also one of the rare instances of religion being handled in a sympathetic way in speculative fiction. I'm an atheist but it gets tiresome seeing every single religion being somewhere between idiots and pure, mustachioed twirling evil.
Thank you for saying that you're bored with religion bashing. For all those who think we need to hear how ridiculous and horrible religion is, please realize we heard you— yesterday, the day before, the day before that . . . . It's been almost 97,000 days since Voltaire's Candid was published.
Well, sure, but people keep being born every day so education is an endless cycle. 2+2 =4 has been known since the Antiquity and indeed since prehistory - we still tell kids.
Furthermore, religion and religious people keep being ridiculous and horrible in 2023. I honestly don't seek to antagonize anyone and I wasn't even a full fledged New Atheist but you got to admit that calling people on the shit they're doing right now is potentially useful and saying "you called me on that yesterday and the day before" is hardly an adequate rebuttal.
I realized what I really don't enjoy about religion bashers: they tend to stereotype all religions as equally toxic. It's as bad as racism— all black people are a certain way. My experience is that I only tend to encounter religion bashers as very indiscriminate in their condemnation. The folks who understand that religions are different probably don't speak out as forcefully. Of course, I realize that many who embrace a religion are equally as stereotyping and intolerant.
“Education is an endless cycle” is a true statement, but a disastrous motto for a fiction writer.
Have you ever thought that a yearly atheist/anti-organized religion week/fortnight might be established when the horrors of religion and the nonexistence of God are proclaimed in a focused manner? You may be lessening your impact by being a constant minor irritation.
Christianity has only two big seasons of the year when its message becomes prominent. Judaism has three. Islam has one lunar month.
OTOH, if anyone is convicted of a crime it should be revealed and spoken of to the maximum extent. They always seem to point it out when the perp is religiously active. Maybe we should equal that out by publicizing non-religious perps as well. It seems to me that someone's getting a free ride in that department.
Yeah, we'll worry about that just as soon as the "religious" no longer have positions of power from which to force their doctrine into laws that affect the rest of us.
It remains a daily battle, because the Christo-Fascists in this country never rest and have an infinite reserve of creativity when it comes to their exercise of whittling away other people's rights and bodily autonomy... particularly when it seems quite clear that this slow erosion of rights is just the beginning of a campaign to marginalize and dehumanize people that they actually don't want to *exist* in society, at all.
“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.” -Thomas Jefferson.
So, wouldn't it be nice to just focus on Christo-Fascists and discuss other religions in less toxic terms? Religion is many different things, and non-religion is just one.
We just happen to live in the US which is overrun with Christo-fascists as opposed to Iran or Afghanistan who are dominated and ruled by Islamofascists. I will duly object if required to follow rules set forth by the Koran and predominant Muslim sect by my government. At least until I am stoned to death.
Do you think religion being normalized and put on a pedestal in other aspects of our lives should preclude art from addressing the fact that religion is basically a human construct, filled with our weak human cognitive biases, and maybe we should be resistant to the idea and efforts to put one faith's doctrine in a place of influence over EVERYONE ELSE in society as codified into laws?
Also, I find that people who base their religious faith in an individualized personal relationship with their creator and how that inspires them to be a better person aren't as offended by honest critiques of religion, as are the people who are basically performative/cultural Christians who think the organized, culture war aspect of their religion is the important part of the exercise. (So much for the Christ parts of the bible)
The more genuine person isn't offended by critics pointing out rampant religious hypocrisy, because they aren't the ones out there actively engaged in that hypocrisy and giving religion a bad name in the first place.
Maybe if some negative critique of religion strikes a nerve and makes someone offended, that's because there's an element of truth to it. If you weren't mentioned, then you wouldn't feel attacked. Is that supposed to be someone else's problem that YOU might see yourself described in what is often a broad, undirected critique of some doctrine or agenda of an organized religion for society.
"Don't talk about religion" While religion is actively taking a role in rolling back other people's rights to privacy and bodily autonomy is sure convenient for the people doing the rolling back.
If your religion is a mostly private endeavor you apply only to your OWN life and behavior, then that's GREAT. That's what religion is supposed to be in a modern, civilized, democratic context.
It's the people who aren't content for their personal religion to guide JUST their own lives that are making a problem for the rest of us.
Having these discussions openly and in art might actually keep people from falling into a Christo-Fascist mindset. Letting people remain in a like minded bubble that just keeps pushing the envelope of what they should believe and do on account of that faith is ceding the very earliest point in which most people could be subtly dissuaded from that kind of thinking by having the issues presented in other contexts they might more easily relate to.
"So, wouldn't it be nice to just focus on Christo-Fascists and discuss other religions in less toxic terms?"
If anyone is describing religion in "toxic" terms, one should really only be offended if they are engaged in the toxic things that are being described. Meanwhile, I don't see nearly enough people of faith out there trying to dissuade their fellow adherents from being patently "not nice" and "toxic" and ultimately fascist towards groups of people they seek to dehumanize and legislate out of existence.
So, once again this seems like a religious bias towards trying to tell other people what they should and should not be doing because of how it might make religious people feel, while taking very little interest in holding their own to any kind of standard of human decency and granting respect for the feelings and freedoms of others.
I wonder what would happen if anti-religionists attained power. Would they be more in favor of human freedom and diversity? I remember the persecution of religionists in Marxist countries.
You’re acting as if we didn’t have the more clearly secular government and court rulings we had from the 1940s to the mid 1980s. No one was oppressed. You just couldn’t force school kids and employees to engage in public prayer against their personal beliefs… oh the humanity! We extended the rights of women and gay people not to be openly harassed or discriminated against… clutch your pearls!
It was the unholy alliance of racists and evangelicals via the “southern strategy” that gave the outwardly religious a foothold to assert their religious doctrine into law. Prior to that, it was largely understood that the separation of church and state was a fundamental principle in our founding, and that meant it is unacceptable to put doctrine into law that intrudes on other people’s right to practice their own faith or lack of faith.
97 thousand days and still a must read!
Seriously, though, there is a habit of casual religion bashing that haunts science fiction; but the best takes it seriously and gives us characters like Firefly's Shepherd Book; if you've never read Ursula K. LeGuin's Always Coming Home, it's a difficult read that depicts a society and it's beliefs in a deeply serious fashion.
And, of course, authors who are gonna take a shot at religion should at the very least put some effort into it. I thought the Hunger Games did good job examining the ways faith fails without using the word "god" once.
Agreed on that. I liked the way religion was handled in Hyperion, at least the first two books. Space Catholics have fallen far from power and have been cast aside by humanity in favor of zen Buddhist philosophies that encourage decadent behavior.
Please look into the "The Dark Is Rising" fantasy series by Susan Cooper. It is especially fun to read at the time of the Winter Solstice.
I read that as a little kid, but I barely remember it! Time for a re-read.
I remember reading that series at night with a flashlight when I should have been sleeping. It was so amazing I can't imagine it being any better than mildly disappointing as an adult, but adults vary a lot in their ability to appreciate the art of children's literature.
So fab.
"I've long believed that instead of seeing humans as having fallen from a past state of greatness or grace, we should venerate our ancestors' long, hard climb up out of the muck of animal existence."
YES! YES!
Fuck the lie of Eden. Darwinian randomness and natural selection somehow gifted Homo sapiens with unique (at least on this planet) abilities to fight back against this abusive universe, and we should be proud of how much ground we've won. And if our record is very much a mixed bag, what abuse survivor can't say the same?
This is such a great list, Noah. Thanks!
I know this is really a sci-fi list, but your fantasy suggestions lean a bit classic for my taste - there's tons of great modern fantasy out there to try. A few suggestions: The Lies of Locke Lamora, by Scott Lynch, about a master con man robbing the rich in a fantastical version of Venice; the operatic Broken Earth Series, by N.K. Jemesin, which manages to tackle massive issues like racism, environmental degradation, slavery, and sexuality within a great (and lean) story; and of course the Stormlight Archive, by Brandon Sanderson, which many people consider to be the pinnacle of the modern genre.
Happy reading!
I myself tried Lies of Locke Lamora, it was alright but maybe too YA for my taste. I also felt like I was being “sequel baited” when the main characters made certain choices, seemingly just to create loose threads to pick up later. It was the same complaint I had about Way of Kings. It’s why a book like A Deepness in the Sky is so fantastic. It doesnt need a sequel at all.
Interesting. I often recommend Lock Lamora because even though it's the first in a series, it stands on its own as a self-contained story. Though I completely agree about the Way of Kings (the first book in the Stormlight Archive). It's unabashedly part of a really long series and you have to be in for that. I definitely am - but I can see how you might not be.
Re: Deepness in the Sky - do I need to read A Fire Upon the Deep first?
Loved some of the imagery in Lamora, the glass and so on I can recall. Just not for me. But for Deepness, it is definitely standalone although same universe as Fire and some overlapping characters. It is a book I’ve recommended to people and had them never take a recommendation from me again, so keep that in mind. Not a light read but if you like economics and politics, as well as stories about aliens, you should dig it.
+1 for the Broken Earth trilogy recommendation. It's heartbreaking but with hope woven throughout.
I loved Nexus, have you read Pandora's Star by Peter F. Hamilton? That is some of my all-time fav sci-fi.
Side note, I asked ~1400 authors for their fav books they read in 2023, here were the sci-fi results -> https://shepherd.com/bboy/2023/science-fiction
Oh that's awesome! Thank you!!
Oh and yes I read Pandora's Star. I enjoyed it!
Thx! It was a fun project and going to try to go bigger for 2024!
Andy Wier is right near the top of the list you posted. I've read The Martian and Artemis and loved both—although the Martian is one of the few works where I recommend either the book or the film without reservation. One of the best hero versus wilderness tales I've ever read in a single sitting
Totally agree, have you read Project Hail Mary? That was one of my favs last year.
This is an amazing because so many of these books are already on my all-time favorite list. If I had to pick one super-favorite from this list, it would be Anathem.
Damn - what a fantastic list this is, truly. Thank you. I'm halfway through the Vorkosigan books at the moment and they are all that you say. A note on that: if anyone has an Audible+ subscription (the monthly one, where you get one credit per month), you'll also have access to the Plus catalogue - and most of the Vorkosigan books are in it to download and listen to for free.
Excellent tip!
Glad you're enjoying Vorkosigan. 🥳
Very much so!
Also, if you haven't tried it yet, I think you might like the Baru Cormorant books by Seth Dickinson for the real-feeling convoluted worldbuilding - it starts with "The Traitor Baru Cormorant". Similarly, have you had a go at Arkady Martine's "A Memory Called Empire" (2020)?
I did read A Memory Called Empire! I should go read the sequels!
I am bogging down a bit on book three of Dickinson. Not sure I’ll finish. First two were very good (both characters and setting). Thumbs up on Martine.
Hoopla has them too
PS Contrary to our esteemed host I think the best books are the kind of trilogy that starts at Memory goes through Komarr and ends at A Civil Campaign. In addition to being great reads and full of quotable lines I find them very much reminiscent of Dorothy L Sayer's Peter Wimsey detective novels. (Which you should also read even though there are absolutely not SF)
Wow, this is awesome! Thank you, Noah! I consider myself well read in Sci-Fi and Fantasy, but most of these are new to me. I’m super excited to make my way through your list!
A couple of my own recommendations:
* N. K. Jemison’s Broken Earth trilogy (Sci-Fi parable on racial essentialism and mother-daughter relationships)
* Every book in Joe Abercrombie’s First Law world (dark as hell fantasy and a world of magic trends into industrialization)
Oh, and another one in Fantasy: Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell!
Yeah, the first two Broken Earth books have been great and I'm looking to finish soon - I guess they definitely count as science fiction.
You've got to read the third Broken Earth book - it ties up the first two books together in a most satisfying way. N. K. Jemison really blew the roof off with this series
Zone of Thought is truly outstanding. One thing that always struck me were the "far out" aliens who kept offering very weird opinions and sort of insisting that since they were so far away from the action, they had a better take on what was really happening than the people near it. I might be misremembering those details, I need to re-read it. I have not re-read the books in a long while but whenever I do, I get a real chuckle.
If folks like Zone of Thought and particularly Deepness, the book Children of Time is fantastic. In some ways it’s a better story than Deepness, though similar. I love a good first contact story.
Thanks Noah
Please add Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Another hard sci-fi best listened to on audio as sound is an important component of the plot
I did!
Yo...I need to listen to this on audio ASAP. Read the book, was contemplating a re-read. This would be great
How did A Canticle for Leibowitz not make your list at all? Seems right up your alley. Also, it's fantastic.
It would be a great book for someone that enjoyed Anathem by Stephenson for sure
Very thoughtful and gracious. Thank you.
A comment about the Prydain books - I too read Lloyd Alexander growing up and as a parent (of kids who are now teens) discovered they had fallen out of the rotation, so to speak. Perhaps the Potterverse or Hunger Games or Percy Jackson crowded them out? YA has been a verdant genre for a while now.
I wonder when Prydain fell out of rotation. I remember reading them and having the Black Cauldron PC game as a child.
This one, perhaps? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Cauldron_(video_game)
For sure, it was a Sierra game like King's Quest and Police Quest.
So many comments swirling around in my mind as I read that list which was incredible by the way. Let's leave it at two:
* You can't just mention "Parable of the Sower" (Octavia Butler) without also including "Parable of the Talents".
* I recently reread "Lord of LIght" (Roger Zelazny). Having reread a few other science fiction works that blew my mind in the 70s, but disappointed me, I can safely say that this was not one of them. It holds up very well to me.
I actually haven't read Parable of the Talents, believe it or not!
Something to look forward to!
Noah, you just guaranteed I will be a long term subscriber. You mentioned the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander, an utterly brilliant 5 book series. I go back and read it every few years, which I have been doing for 50+ years. Thank you, and Merry Christmas.:))
The few, the proud, the Prydain fans! 🥳
Merry Christmas!!
Merry Christmas! Thanks for giving us the gift of this list! I remember well reading Prydain as a kid – at the same as the Old Kingdom books by Garth Nix, which I’d recommend just as strongly if you haven’t read them! The initial trilogy (Sabriel, Lirael, Abhorsen) is some of my favorite fantasy ever written.
I'll check it out! I love his short stories.
I too read the Prydain books growing up and assumed they were more commonly read. For better or worse, Gwystyl is a character I have identified with ever since.
I went on a road trip to New York from Kansas in college, and I read out loud the first two books of Prydain. It was great fun and the car mates evidently enjoyed it, but 20 hours of doing a Gurgi voice is murder on your vocal chords!
Thanks, Noah. This is a great list, including many I, myself, would recommend :)
I would highly recommend you finish the third book, "Death's End", in the "Remembrance of Earth's Past" series; it is well worth the 600 page effort.
I have another series for your SF list, by an author you've already included:
Stephen R. Donaldson's, "The Gap Cycle" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gap_Cycle] — starts off a bit dark, but is a very well written story that keep's you engaged, as it unfolds.
Also, I have a very strong series recommendation for your Fantasy list:
"Malazan Book of the Fallen", by Steven Erikson [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malazan_Book_of_the_Fallen] — This is a massive story of epic proportions, spanning thousands of years, across multiple contents and 'peoples', that is so original and well written, you will not be able to put the 10 books down. I promise. _Highly_ recommended!
And, again, thanks for this list.
Agreed on both series. It took me years to finish Erikson's epic, it's bonkers how big and complex it is.
Based on the sci-fi recommendations I was honestly surprised Malazan wasn’t listed. Haven’t read it myself, but it’s always on “challenge yourself” speculative fiction lists
Hmmm, yeah but nah. I don't feel he held the sprawl of his world together very well.
You think the Gap Cycle [starts] dark ;) I felt it was missing from that list too...