I think it might save time if the people who write about Dimes Square would provide us with some primary source material.
Can they please show us a good song, a good painting, a good film or a good essay—and no, I will not accept an essay *about* the Dimes Square scene—that this milieu has produced?
I'm not buying the punk analogy until I see some actual artistic output and have the opportunity to be impressed by it, or not.
Now I know what people born in the 1930s must have felt like when confronted with Richard Hell or Patti Smith (”you’ve discovered Rimbaud, how cool of you”). Also want to be the first to point out that MP5 shoots 9mm pistol bullets and is therefore not a machine gun.
For subculture suggestions, I have some (no specific order):
Permies
The name's derived from "Permaculture", aka people trying a specific way of having a neutral or positive ecological footprint, often followers of Paul Wheaton. By necessity an offline first culture but it does organise online.
BDSM subculture
egirl culture
(Maybe substack writer sympathetic opposition would be up for that one? I remember her mentioning liking the culture several times)
Scouts and Guides
As in, the organisation and movement founded by Lord Robert Baden-Powell in 1907. By membership numbers probably the greatest youth movement of all time. Out of the 312 American astronauts, 207 were Scouts, including Neil Armstrong. The only subculture on the list I'd be qualified to write about.
Punk and new wave were done and dusted as artistic forces by the 1980s
The ethos was DIY, individuality, self-expression and fun -- soon to be subsumed by imitation, conformity, emo and grunge; polar opposites under the sun.
It was more about “chop my way though the path of life” than “run with the dog pack / is that the way to be the one to survive.”
Punk is a state of mind telling the olds and the establishment to fook right off, not an intellectual or academic pursuit, or J. Lydon swooning over the coronation.
Thanks for sharing this article. Personally I was jaded by the punk rock that I grew up with. And hard for me to see the people grasp that they truly see the societal overtones over their actions. I asked them one time if they wanted to check out a punk rock band and they responded that was a “jock” show.
One tiny correction: Kiki’s has signage! Yes, they left up the old printing store’s signage, but the restaurant spans two storefronts and the other one (white awning with red writing on the right in the photo) clearly says “Kiki’s Greek Tavern”—in Chinese.
I know it's not central to the piece at all (and apparently an observation made elsewhere), but it's weird to see the Residents labeled as punk. They may have been giving the finger to the same man, but hard to find any other rationale for the label to my eyes/ears.
Punk rock was very, very messy. There were plenty of highly intelligent lyricists who used being offensive as a way to bring attention to issues, and they did this with a refined sense of irony. Unfortunately, they also assumed their listening base would be on the same mental wavelength as them, and in doing so they got lumped in with other, less intelligent songwriters. Punk became a caricature during the early 1980s, and you can see this reflected in both the cynical lyrics of the time, and in the fact that many intelligent bands railed against this anti-intellectualism invading their thoughtful genre.
I made the same mistake years ago on social media, assuming my readers understood things at a higher level, and I overused irony, probably exacerbating the very problems I was trying to solve.
I think I have done a much, much better job with this over the last few years, particularly here on Substack, but I'm cognizant that it's better to err on the side of being a little less funny, while avoiding the risk of making things a lot worse. It's a delicate balance, and we all have to be careful.
I’m beginning to think that if we had listened to the soccer moms and Reaganites back in the 90’s who complained about places like 4chan we might not be drowning in this garbage heap of accelerationist bullshit. At the very least we might have stymied the flow of low effort, esoteric memes enough that they wouldn’t be leaking into meatspace now.
I'm dying to see this go further than some insular references to a few podcasts and niche celebs. A wider movement with more writers, bands, performers, artists... basically a reinvention of 21st-century counter-culture without the moral policing. I went to edgier parties just going to industrial events in my 20s in Bushwick than what a lot of these people seem to be putting on now, (4chan irl + titties) but I believe the seeds have been planted for something long-term that is going to be brilliant. I'm mostly excited by the fashion designers like Elena Velez taking part in the scene. Yet I'd want to attend an actual event before fully commenting, because a bunch of blog posts tell me little about an actual community.
I enjoy reading about subcultures. It's enjoyable to learn about the different ways people try to build belonging and community.
This one feels like a stretch, though. I'm not seeing any "culture". With this essay as my only exposure, it seems like a group of meme posters with less than 100 people creating any content. Basically, neighbors in a city that spend their time posting online?
This seems to be evidence that people in NYC do the kinds of drugs that make you annoying instead of chill.
> discussing the Freudian themes of the anime series Neon Genesis Evangelion
Well, when white people discuss Evangelion they actually just discuss the things other white people read into it.
(As basic examples, Eva is not a "deconstruction", and the writers thought they were writing Gendo as a good dad and were surprised when Westerners disagreed.)
the idea that the neighborhood described as “dimes square” only gentrified + inspired an outmigration of people to brooklyn in 2020 is ludicrous lmao. it’s been just about the most expensive place to live in the country for years.
almost anyone able to participate in this “scene” IRL is obscenely wealthy, or their parents are.
I remember reading this piece by Mike Crumplar a while back and wondering if I was having a stroke:
https://mcrumps.substack.com/p/my-own-dimes-square-fascist-humiliation
I think it might save time if the people who write about Dimes Square would provide us with some primary source material.
Can they please show us a good song, a good painting, a good film or a good essay—and no, I will not accept an essay *about* the Dimes Square scene—that this milieu has produced?
I'm not buying the punk analogy until I see some actual artistic output and have the opportunity to be impressed by it, or not.
Now I know what people born in the 1930s must have felt like when confronted with Richard Hell or Patti Smith (”you’ve discovered Rimbaud, how cool of you”). Also want to be the first to point out that MP5 shoots 9mm pistol bullets and is therefore not a machine gun.
I really like your amateur ethnography series!
For subculture suggestions, I have some (no specific order):
Permies
The name's derived from "Permaculture", aka people trying a specific way of having a neutral or positive ecological footprint, often followers of Paul Wheaton. By necessity an offline first culture but it does organise online.
BDSM subculture
egirl culture
(Maybe substack writer sympathetic opposition would be up for that one? I remember her mentioning liking the culture several times)
Scouts and Guides
As in, the organisation and movement founded by Lord Robert Baden-Powell in 1907. By membership numbers probably the greatest youth movement of all time. Out of the 312 American astronauts, 207 were Scouts, including Neil Armstrong. The only subculture on the list I'd be qualified to write about.
Sorry, but who cares?
Punk and new wave were done and dusted as artistic forces by the 1980s
The ethos was DIY, individuality, self-expression and fun -- soon to be subsumed by imitation, conformity, emo and grunge; polar opposites under the sun.
It was more about “chop my way though the path of life” than “run with the dog pack / is that the way to be the one to survive.”
Punk is a state of mind telling the olds and the establishment to fook right off, not an intellectual or academic pursuit, or J. Lydon swooning over the coronation.
https://youtu.be/KZmth7DcRNU
Thanks for sharing this article. Personally I was jaded by the punk rock that I grew up with. And hard for me to see the people grasp that they truly see the societal overtones over their actions. I asked them one time if they wanted to check out a punk rock band and they responded that was a “jock” show.
One tiny correction: Kiki’s has signage! Yes, they left up the old printing store’s signage, but the restaurant spans two storefronts and the other one (white awning with red writing on the right in the photo) clearly says “Kiki’s Greek Tavern”—in Chinese.
I know it's not central to the piece at all (and apparently an observation made elsewhere), but it's weird to see the Residents labeled as punk. They may have been giving the finger to the same man, but hard to find any other rationale for the label to my eyes/ears.
Punk rock was very, very messy. There were plenty of highly intelligent lyricists who used being offensive as a way to bring attention to issues, and they did this with a refined sense of irony. Unfortunately, they also assumed their listening base would be on the same mental wavelength as them, and in doing so they got lumped in with other, less intelligent songwriters. Punk became a caricature during the early 1980s, and you can see this reflected in both the cynical lyrics of the time, and in the fact that many intelligent bands railed against this anti-intellectualism invading their thoughtful genre.
I made the same mistake years ago on social media, assuming my readers understood things at a higher level, and I overused irony, probably exacerbating the very problems I was trying to solve.
I think I have done a much, much better job with this over the last few years, particularly here on Substack, but I'm cognizant that it's better to err on the side of being a little less funny, while avoiding the risk of making things a lot worse. It's a delicate balance, and we all have to be careful.
I’m beginning to think that if we had listened to the soccer moms and Reaganites back in the 90’s who complained about places like 4chan we might not be drowning in this garbage heap of accelerationist bullshit. At the very least we might have stymied the flow of low effort, esoteric memes enough that they wouldn’t be leaking into meatspace now.
I'm dying to see this go further than some insular references to a few podcasts and niche celebs. A wider movement with more writers, bands, performers, artists... basically a reinvention of 21st-century counter-culture without the moral policing. I went to edgier parties just going to industrial events in my 20s in Bushwick than what a lot of these people seem to be putting on now, (4chan irl + titties) but I believe the seeds have been planted for something long-term that is going to be brilliant. I'm mostly excited by the fashion designers like Elena Velez taking part in the scene. Yet I'd want to attend an actual event before fully commenting, because a bunch of blog posts tell me little about an actual community.
I enjoy reading about subcultures. It's enjoyable to learn about the different ways people try to build belonging and community.
This one feels like a stretch, though. I'm not seeing any "culture". With this essay as my only exposure, it seems like a group of meme posters with less than 100 people creating any content. Basically, neighbors in a city that spend their time posting online?
This seems to be evidence that people in NYC do the kinds of drugs that make you annoying instead of chill.
> discussing the Freudian themes of the anime series Neon Genesis Evangelion
Well, when white people discuss Evangelion they actually just discuss the things other white people read into it.
(As basic examples, Eva is not a "deconstruction", and the writers thought they were writing Gendo as a good dad and were surprised when Westerners disagreed.)
the idea that the neighborhood described as “dimes square” only gentrified + inspired an outmigration of people to brooklyn in 2020 is ludicrous lmao. it’s been just about the most expensive place to live in the country for years.
almost anyone able to participate in this “scene” IRL is obscenely wealthy, or their parents are.
Wasn't expecting the Red Scare pod to pop up here, but I'm not mad. Do Bari Weiss next.
milady